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Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

t.me

221–230 of 295 posts

Re: Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, print it in a book or on your blog, on a sign outside your house, or on a postcard, or with green eggs and ham.

Mind telling me what it is so I can utilize that right?

I'm on the internet writing from an anonymous HN account. I get to choose what you know about me. Obviously, I want to stay anonymous, so I'm not going to compromise my anonymity by telling you my address. If you find it, go post it to your blog or wherever you wish.

If I link a social media profile to my real name, or something that identifies me, that's my responsibility.

Re: Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

#222
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, but only in situations where it is user controlled. In other words, tools that empower a user to control what they read is not censorship. That makes no sense. A paper supplier is not censoring anyone if they can't or won't provide printing paper. You're somehow conflating not actively supporting a cause with censoring someone. It's ok if you feel yo have something to say to the world, but that does not give yo…

> You're somehow conflating not actively supporting a cause with censoring someone. No, I'm merely making the argument that spam control tools are not censorship because the user decides. I'm not sure how the paper supplier fits in to this argument. Perhaps it is a good analogy for the original topic.

Lots of spam filtering happens long before the user has any control.

You ever try to set up your own email server and then have it be able to send to Gmail addresses? Very very difficult.

Re: Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

#223
post #42
post #39

i'm enjoying the right-leaning comments here -- it's not censorship, it's being censured which highlights a point i like to make: if you wish to defend KF, first you have to justify the concrete speech being carried out on it with examples which you can't post here because it goes against the rules of this place -- which should be a pretty big hint as to why the fruit site got censured

The right supports the right of private businesses to decide who to serve unless they are kicking out right wingers in which case we need government intervention to guarantee a platform. It’s sort of like how they support federalism except when states do things they don’t like, or small government except for when it comes to their pet issues.

Well, it's easy to make your opponents sound bad when you strawman their entire ideology for them.

Unless you have some videos of right-wing politicians calling for the executives at Cloudflare to go to prison, I think that the right-wing position has always been the fairly consistent "you can choose to not provide services to whomever you want, but it's a pretty dick move to do so."

Re: Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Malicious domains, users of email services for spam purposes, etc, get removed by their hosts all the time. That's simply a fact, I have made or been involved with the process as I work in security. There are some providers that are more cooperative than others, and certainly lists like Safe Browsing exists as well to deal with that + they can be more false positive tolerant. My point is that these providers make cho…

For decades, we've had a pretty consistent notion of what constitutes "network abuse". It's traffic that threatens the stability of the network itself (such as spam and worm traffic). Obviously illegal stuff can be taken down by law enforcement. But stuff that's simply "bad for society" is generally given a free pass. If you don't like it, your options should be: 1. Don't visit them. 2. Sue them. 3. Get law enforceme…

> For decades, we've had a pretty consistent notion of what constitutes "network abuse".

Not at all the case. We still rely on the CFAA, which is extremely vague.

> It's traffic that threatens the stability of the network itself (such as spam and worm traffic).

Definitely not that.

> Obviously illegal stuff can be taken down by law enforcement.

Not really, no.

a) Jurisdiction can be unclear

b) There is no "shut down website" button that the government has. They have the ability to take over physical infrastructure if it is located in the US or they can request seizure of domain names (may or may not work!)

The point being that there are actually limitations to what the government is able to do to respond, even in cases where they would like to.

> But stuff that's simply "bad for society" is generally given a free pass.

Indeed it is the opposite. Most of the "policing" on the internet is done with very basic common sense. Software that exists to trick you into paying someone for "AV" software? Not actually illegal (mostly - the malware itself is not illegal, there may be wire fraud charges as part of the payment etc), but it's malware and it gets removed by hosting providers all the time.

> 1. Don't visit them.

No one who wants Kiwifarms taken down visits Kiwifarms. The issue is that Kiwifarms is a site dedicated to a community that attacks others. This isn't an issue of user consent.

> 2. Sue them.

Sue who? Again, you're talking about international issues, you may not even know who is involved because people use pseudonyms.

> Note that there is no #4 that says "harass everyone they depend on in an attempt to get them taken offline".

"harass" is a really disingenuous way to put it. Again, deeply ironic given that it was Kiwifarms who harassed Cloudflare. Tweeting "Fuck you for not taking them down" is not harassment (although Twitter would be within their rights to moderate such content!).

Beyond that, you haven't really made any argument for why the system you have described (which does not exist) is better. You haven't made a case for why it's important that we abide by your system, or why there's "no #4". I don't care, to be clear, but I see the argument a lot that "well it should be handled through the legal system" as if we have no agency in this world except to live to the fullest extent of the law's mercy and exactly no more or less.

Hosting providers are free to moderate their content. Diners are free to turn away customers who are not protected. Dang can delete message on HN. Google and ban spammers. AWS can disable accounts that abuse SES. And so on.

Re: Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Provided someone is paying the bill and the site's location and ownership are accessible to law enforcement (like any other site). I'm not sure KF would be considered protected speech, even in the USA.

>I'm not sure KF would be considered protected speech, even in the USA. It absolutely is.

This is correct. The vast majority of KiwiFarm's content (aside from vulgar replies) is the obsessive compilation of public posts, e.g. screenshots of deleted tweets. It's protected because the right to be forgotten isn't recognized in American law.

Re: Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

#227
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but when they are, we should just fix them, rather than resorting to vigilantism.

> rather than resorting to vigilantism Where/how is vigilantism occurring?

For one, KF constantly faces DDoS attacks.

Re: Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

#228
post #99
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rather than resorting to vigilantism Where/how is vigilantism occurring?

Kiwifarms users are engaging in vigilantism against their targets, and it's not even vigilantism for a real crime - it's vigilantism for the "crime" of being transgender.

This isn't quite accurate. While they do disproportionately make threads about people who are trans, they have plenty of threads about cis people as well. It's not like they target random transgender people. If anything, the "crime" would be being Internet-famous.

Re: Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

#229
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moon? Please loop me in. There is precedent for censorious tech conglomerates (reddit, at least) to defend people who are sex offenders. I'm no fan of Kiwifarms, but I'm also no fan of the DIY HRT guide Keffals runs that advises (often underage) people on doing home-chemistry to make hormones. Would be nice if the right could stop slandering every trans person as a mentally ill groomer and the left could stop labelin…

If you support Kiwifarms on free speech grounds, I absolutely don't see how you could fail to support a DIY HRT guide on the same free speech grounds.

One could argue that there's a huge difference between the two: dangerousness. Making at-home body-altering substances to be consumed is obviously physically dangerous. It's much harder to argue that what KF does is physically dangerous.

Re: Kiwifarms Dropped by Their ISP

#230
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is Gab, and they are also using Cloudflare. They also have their own ASN and have been sitting on Hurricane Electric (HE) for years despite all the calls to 'deplatform' them, which like I expected Kiwifarms to move to Epik for their domain, they will also move to HE or elsewhere. I guess Gab is not villain of the month to be deplatformed today.

Gab is simply irrelevant in the big picture.

That's beside the point. Even so, it is as 'irrelevant' as Mastodon is regardless.

The whole point is, Cloudflare still has them as a customer despite all the chaos that has happened with Gab in the past and despite the calls and previous failed attempts to deplatform and wipe them off the internet, they are still there using Epik, HE and I predict that KiwiFarms will follow suit.

Until the next time one of them becomes the villain of the month, then we'll see the same calls, deplatforming attempts once again.

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