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Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

reuters.com

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Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#221

Post by kjeetgill »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #128
2Gkashmiri wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cool. lets see the world now decide how they will play it, i mean here is prior deliberations and intent and we saw today the action itself so if USA is behind this which they most probably are, how will EU for example respond to this aggression? I hope the same response viz a viz sanctions, trade barriers, this and that.????

I mean.. if EU leadership was competent, they'd do the thing that USA is most afraid of.. talk to putin and make a strong europe. Realistically.. even if they found an american submarine with "pipecutters" still connected to the pipeline, they'd say they'll do everything in their power(!!!)... and then send an angry letter to USA and replace an ambassador or two somewhere.

> if EU leadership was competent, they'd do the thing that USA is most afraid of.. talk to putin and make a strong europe.

Wow Just wow. Ready to place responsibility at everyone but Russia's feet right? Such a blameless third party victim in all of this /s.

The pipeline itself was in good part Merkel's olive branch to connect Putin economically to the rest of the EU. The hope was that giving Russia more to lose would prevent these conflicts. Sure the US, among others, we're wary of this kind of interdependence.

Well, now we know how things shook out and we're all dealing with it. Germany from the back foot this round.

Now I'm not attributing any great foresight to naysayers (US among them), it was a nobel bid for peace on Germany's part and there's always a chance we'd be talking about the brilliance of deepening those connections with Russia.

But we can't.

Russia drove its tanks into Ukraine, nobody made them. They weren't under any great duress. Even the most unjustifiably charitable take of Russian justification accounts for what, just Luhansk and Donetsk? But they tried to take Kiev. Tried to take every bit of Ukrainian's coastline with the Black Sea through Odessa. Russia good out of it's way to poison their reputation here with conquest.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#222

Post by jabthedang »

koheripbal wrote: post #200
Markoff wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well clear winner of current sitaution is US, clear loser is Europe/EU and Russia is somewhere in between, but they can sell their gas elsewhere, so what would be point sabotaging own business (though it could be false flag attack).

No, the winner here is clearly Russia. They wanted to cut the line to pressure the EU into pressuring Ukraine to agree to a ceasefire along existing battle lines. Cutting production through an "accident" allows them plausible deniability to cut Europe's gas supplies without formally violating the contract and for restoration negotiations if the Ukraine question is settled.

No post body was provided.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#223

Post by JumpCrisscross »

lm28469 wrote: post #202
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's even ceramic plates Ceramic armour resists bullets. Cardboard doesn’t block or deflect threats to tanks in any form. (It’s not even suitable for collision mitigation.)

> Ceramic armour resists bullets. Why do my plates shatter when I drop them then ?! if they can't withstand my floor how could they possibly deflect bullets ?! > Cardboard doesn’t block or deflect threats to tanks in any form Well then good thing there is no cardboard in their tanks. You really take a random pic from twitter as the absolute truth even though you were presented alternatives ? Maybe another twitter pos…

> it is supposed to be like that

I’ve seen claims that this is for structural reinforcement of sandbags, which makes no sense on multiple levels. (Even if the tank armour can’t resist bullets, a premise which raises its own host of questions, there is better light armour. And even if one insists on sand, a requirement which raises its own host of questions, civil engineering has better solved the problem of immobilising sand.) Those claims also have zero history before photos of the egg cartons emerged, which isn’t unexpected for military kit, but suspect given Moscow’s tendency for ham-fisted retconning.

The broader point is, whether designed that way or not, it’s evidence of incompetence. If the people doing that built a pipe part, I wouldn’t be surprised to see it fail. (Though based on German comments, there is reason to suspect foul play.)

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#224

Post by LatteLazy »

Gare wrote: post #133
LatteLazy wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the whole point of subs is that they can go almost anywhere undetected, Chinese or otherwise? Hence all the fuss about Russian subs (possibly) entering Swedish waters over the last few decades, but no one being sure if it happened or whether the sub in question was actually Russian... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_submarine_incidents#Af... Though I doubt there is any foul play here at all...

Almost anywhere, yes. But there are only three narrow, shallow straits connecting Baltic sea to the North sea, all under NATO control.

Do nato actually "control" them in the sense of making subs surface etc then? I didn't know that. Cool.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#226

Post by areyousure »

aa-jv wrote: post #166
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you want to use more violent language about this war than is necessary? Both sides of this discussion seem unnecessary and loaded. It’s obviously a war. That shouldn’t need to be said. But once said, it shouldn’t be so vigorously fought.

Where is the claim being made that it isn't a war?

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/2/do-not-call-ukraine-...

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#227

Post by shadowgovt »

aa-jv wrote: post #191
shadowgovt wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which means, since this is cloak-and-dagger stuff, we could add to the list of suspects "anyone who could get access to that Pipeline and wants to destabilize relations between the United States and Germany."

It doesn't destabilize the relationship between US and Germany one bit - unless evidence comes out that the USA did do this damage - in which case the Germans will probably apologize and kowtow, as they always do when America is on the line ... It does make it hard for Germany and Russia to have energy trade, however. Which makes it easier for the USA to sell its dirty gas in Europe.

It destabilizes it to the extant that if a bunch of armchair politicos on HN can reason to the conclusion "The likeliest perpetrator is the United States of America," every nation's espionage organization can certainly find that conclusion too, and possibly act on it, for the purposes of framing the US for their own political reasons.

I'm reminded of the worm that was injected into NASA servers back in the '80s that eventually made its way into DOE servers (creating a possible nuclear crisis because the DOE deals with two things: energy policy and the posture of the American nuclear response system). Direct initial investigation pointed to the worm originating from servers in France, but further investigation revealed that those servers had been compromised, and the likely origin of the worm was hackers in the Australia / New Zealand area. The likeliest catalyst for the attack: France's blatant destruction of the Rainbow Warrior in a New Zealand harbor. The attack ended up serving two purposes: bloody the nose of the Americans, who were (in the eyes of the attackers) playing fast-and-loose with nuclear payloads on NASA missions; and if their antics were discovered, embarrass the French with how easily their servers had been compromised. Essentially, a double-"don't fuck with us" via cyberspace from the Aussies or New Zealand.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/4686/4686.txt

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#228

Post by rasz »

jeltz wrote: post #13
tokai wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone that wants to keep Germany off Russian gas no matter the developments.

But who is that? Ukraine should be fine with having Germany buy Russian gas since Germany keeps sending arms and push others to send arms. I don't see why the US would care either now that Germany is finally moving away from Russian gas. And Russia can just close the pipeline in a less destructive way.

Anyone buying russian gas is pretty much directly funding putin army. No, Ukraine would not be fine with that. All the Baltic states wouldnt mind killing it too. Poland in particular (NL1 killed "Friendship" pipeline) would be most pleased, except its incapable of such moves due to dysfunctional leadership.

Re: Three Nord Stream gas pipelines damaged in one day

#229

Post by butthatsit »

hansjorg wrote: post #212
koheripbal wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the winner here is clearly Russia. They wanted to cut the line to pressure the EU into pressuring Ukraine to agree to a ceasefire along existing battle lines. Cutting production through an "accident" allows them plausible deniability to cut Europe's gas supplies without formally violating the contract and for restoration negotiations if the Ukraine question is settled.

They already had created an "accident" and the gas in Nord Stream 1 was shut off since 31st of August. Even if that wasn't enough, why would they choose to damage the lines this severely (flooding them with sea water)?

Perhaps to force EU to lessen the sanctions, which are also hitting the gas pipeline operator companies?
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