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All poverty is energy poverty

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Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#221

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

WalterBright wrote: post #210
CraigJPerry wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But only around 30% of the refined fuel’s energy transfers into useful work done with the ICE vehicle. If the BEV is running with their 2kw heating turned up full blast in addition to running down the road, and there was a heat loss of around 2-5% while charging the car then We’re still at around 3x more efficient in the BEV vs the ICE. Then there’s the electricity supply which ranges from 0 refinement loss and 50% t…

> But only around 30% of the refined fuel’s energy transfers into useful work done with the ICE vehicle. Right. Now factor in the losses in thermodynamic electric power generation to fuel the EV. > We’re still at around 3x more efficient in the BEV vs the ICE. Don't neglect the losses from generating that electricity, which is about 70%.

It's 10% or less for solar, wind, nuclear, etc...

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#222

Post by bombcar »

bottlepalm wrote: post #179
xyzzyz wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

18th and 19th century Brits who first built these systems were not very educated by our standards. Many of them, in fact, were uneducated tinkerers.

That time period in Britain didn't just see big advancements in industrialization, but in engineering, medicine, finance, and legal systems. You have to see the difference between individuals and the the society itself.

It’s kind of silly to argue the “intelligence” difference between someone who can build a nuclear power plant given a society with supply chains available and someone who with fifty or a thousand men can go into the wilderness and build a functioning city with little or no foreign input for years. They’re entirely different skill sets.

Each year brings our “current” technology level further and further from “if you have some hand tools you can restart”.

And it’s not clear to me that importing everything into a country is a better method than letting them build their own infrastructure using what they have locally (eg only import knowledge). See the “clothing and food dumping” problems in Africa.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#224

Post by [deleted] »

rglover wrote: post #142
olivermarks wrote: post #92

I can't help thinking of the 'Milton Friedman' quote 'If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand' expanded out to the giant unelected global bureaucracies some people would appear to want to give permission to run energy supplies.

This is the ultimate truth that, for whatever reason (emotional/egoic as far as I can tell), gets conveniently ignored. Truly sad to see humanity limit/destroy itself over and over when there are perfectly viable options available.

[deleted]

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#225

Post by type0 »

bluetomcat wrote: post #200
izend wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe has the resources to produce cheap energy they just decided to not exploit it and import their energy from Russia and others.

The conflict between Russia and the west is deeply rooted on the hegemony of rampant worldwide liberalism which creates the problems I described. It's a meat grinder which consumes not only excessive energy but people's livelihoods, too. It is certainly not a world I would want my son to live in.

> It is certainly not a world I would want my son to live in.

What world? The one where Russia is shunned?

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#226

Post by KptMarchewa »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #153
ciconia wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Interesting to see the comment thread digging into all sorts of criticism of the article (is it 2 kWh / fridge? Or 1.1? Should the author discuss renewable?) Hear hear. The point is, for those of us living in developed countries, is that all wealth is energy wealth. The western way of life is totally dependent on an abundance of cheap energy. When energy runs out, or becomes significantly more expensive, it's game…

> becomes significantly more expensive, it's game over for developed countries This is wholly unsustained. Yes, marginal luxuries will become less accessible, though not inaccessible. Flying, food variety, et cetera . But the sustainable cost of clean energy, and industrial processes running at those levels, is within traditional fuels’ long-term error bars [1]. The discrepancy in access to that energy will persist b…

LCOE does not take most important thing of renewables into account - when the energy is actually available. Turns out it's extremely unstable, not only in the day/night cycle, but also around the year. December is black hole in Poland, less than hour of sunlight a day and weak wind.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#227

Post by WalterBright »

manholio wrote: post #215
WalterBright wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not inclusive institutions, it's the people don't have the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I.e. free markets.

Markets are just an abstraction that's built on strong institutions: property rights, an inclusive justice system that can settle commercial disputes and punish the antisocial, a state that can tax that commercial activity and reinvest the proceeds into infrastructure. Without those institutions, markets cannot exist, you are just at the whim of a connected competitor, local gang leader, extractive and corrupt govern…

Free markets require a government, and a government acts as guarantor of the rights needed for the free market to function.

A free market is not a market without a government.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#228

Post by Aperocky »

bluetomcat wrote: post #163
ciconia wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Interesting to see the comment thread digging into all sorts of criticism of the article (is it 2 kWh / fridge? Or 1.1? Should the author discuss renewable?) Hear hear. The point is, for those of us living in developed countries, is that all wealth is energy wealth. The western way of life is totally dependent on an abundance of cheap energy. When energy runs out, or becomes significantly more expensive, it's game…

> When energy runs out, or becomes significantly more expensive, it's game over for developed countries. Western society is inefficient at a macro level, even though it may seem efficient from the financial perspective of a single company or an individual. People cover huge distances to work. Companies are moving goods, components and people from all over the world. People change jobs (losing focus) and their residen…

> adopting a new political philosophy

No thanks, I'd rather let market forces make that decision eventually.

All imposed political philosophy that run contrary to market forces and human desires will run into massive inefficiency and grift.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#229

Post by pbhjpbhj »

nine_k wrote: post #145

One of the most insightful quotes I ever found of HN: «The limiting factor for [civilizations] is collective intelligence, not energy. We already have access to far more energy than we could possibly use on earth for any technology that's actually buildable. But we're not using it because we don't have the species IQ to make the right choices.» https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28232083

I'm not sure "collective intelligence" gives the right feel. We have the intelligence, we're just organised by a few people who have power directing labour towards making those few people even more insanely rich, whilst many people continue without direction and a larger few attempt to direct resources towards the benefit of the majority.

Maybe intelligence is about organisation (of neurons) but still, organisation towards a common goal that isn't further enrichment of the most insanely greedy seems like our major problem on a species level.

Re: All poverty is energy poverty

#230

Post by WalterBright »

manholio wrote: post #215
WalterBright wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not inclusive institutions, it's the people don't have the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I.e. free markets.

Markets are just an abstraction that's built on strong institutions: property rights, an inclusive justice system that can settle commercial disputes and punish the antisocial, a state that can tax that commercial activity and reinvest the proceeds into infrastructure. Without those institutions, markets cannot exist, you are just at the whim of a connected competitor, local gang leader, extractive and corrupt govern…

> punish the antisocial

What do you mean by that?

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