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Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

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Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#221

Post by robryk »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #203
poutine wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a former driver of many Audi quattros and a Canadian who lives on top of a hill with a AWD Tesla 3 I can say it's the best handling car in snow that I've driven (given clearance limits of a sedan). The instant reaction speed of its electric traction control to slippage will vastly outperform any manual transmission. You can drive like an idiot with the pedal to the floor and the car sorts itself out.

I haven't encountered snow since my last manual died but that's my understanding of electronic traction control--give the job to the computer that can do a far better job than any human. When the computer can outperform a human let the computer do it! Only give control of things where at least some drivers can outperform the computer. And, while not relevant to driving, if there's a grey area let the operator hit an…

If the human is doing the traction control job, they know how far from the edge of the envelope they are (because the difficulty changes). If it's a computer doing that, it's hard to communicate that to the human (iiuc we don't even try). Unless this is improved, this means that sometimes it's better to leave a human in control of both strategy and tactics even if the computer would outperform on tactics.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#222

Post by theluketaylor »

Goz3rr wrote: post #195
Animats wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla’s power and torque band is already covering high and low speeds with one gear, although an additional top gear would probably get them to a really insane top speed. Tesla tried that in their original Roadster. It had a two-speed transmission. The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. I…

> The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. It was easier to fix the problem on the electric side than the gear side. Seems to me this was more a problem with Teslas build quality or design, because the Porsche Taycan and Audi e-tron GT have a two speed gearbox. From when I drove the e-tron GT…

Only using first gear for hard launches helps, as does the fact they are using dog clutches in addition to traditional friction plates.

The coolest part is the rear motor can be completely mechanically decoupled from the axel so it can just coast. Most other EV just shut of power to the motor, but Taycan can freewheel on the rear axle.

Jalopnik did a huge in depth on the whole powertrain that is really interesting.

https://jalopnik.com/an-extremely-detailed-look-at-the-porsc...

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#223

Post by thatfrenchguy »

salmo wrote: post #218
zcw100 wrote: post #134

I love driving manual transmission cars but I really don't like this. It's like cosplay for cars. The simulated experience makes it very uncool. I'd rather just let the manual transmission have one last dignified drive into the sunset.

It all depends on the clutch to me. My ADHD is so satisfied by a manual. I’m engaged in the machine. It’s fun and you don’t need a real sports car. But paddle shifters do nothing for me. There’s no feel to it. It’s more like 3 on the tree. If the clutch gives it feel and control, I’m in. Sadly, finding a real manual is hard these days. Most cars don’t offer them. My Honda is stuck in 1 package with a mid-2000s style…

As a ADHD person, driving an EV is even more engaging, as you can precisely get the speed you want with your right foot. It’s amazing.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#224

Post by jpollock »

davewritescode wrote: post #196
jpollock wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious on the relative performance of traction control? Isn't the goal of traction control to limit the power to the wheel? Reading on how TCS works [1], it seems it applies the brake and may limit power from the engine? [1] https://www.scienceabc.com/innovation/what-is-a-traction-con...

Traction control has all sorts of tricks it can use to get you pointed in the right direction. Traction control systems can brake individual wheels to apply rotational torque to counter excessive yaw like when the back tires come loose and the back swings out, the car can induce rotation in the opposite direction to sort things out before they get too dangerous. The other common case is when taking off in a straight…

The argument was that the addition of a transmission would allow more control in snow. Is that only in situations where there isn't traction control, or where it is disabled?

Would traction control be expected to outperform a human on snow? Is the higher weight of an EV going to make it handle poorly anyways?

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#225

Post by DoughnutHole »

sokoloff wrote: post #25
superchroma wrote: post #20

I can't decide whether this is dumber than Dodge making a huge deal about how their new EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger, oh my god, what a branding screw up) makes authentic loud V8 noises, but they're definitely both stupid. Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road?

Above about 20 mph, EVs naturally make plenty of noise for people to realize they’re there and moving. It’s only at low speed that they’re overly quiet for pedestrian awareness.

Getting hit at 18mph is still not a very good time. Sure it's better than being squished at 40mph, but that's still a lot of momentum in a couple tonnes of SUV.

If the silence of the vehicles increases the likelihood of lower speed collisions then that's potentially a problem.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#226

Post by sokoloff »

dpatterbee wrote: post #27
superchroma wrote: post #20

I can't decide whether this is dumber than Dodge making a huge deal about how their new EV Dodge Charger (car not car-charger, oh my god, what a branding screw up) makes authentic loud V8 noises, but they're definitely both stupid. Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road?

> Can we just fast forward to the future where EVs glide around silently and people look both ways before crossing the road? The future looks bleaker with each passing day

  My uncle has a country place, that no-one knows about
  He says it used to be a farm, before the Motor Law
  Sundays I elude the ‘Eyes’, and hop the Turbine Freight
  To far outside the Wire, where my white-haired uncle waits

  Jump to the ground
  As the Turbo slows to cross the borderline
  Run like the wind
  As excitement shivers up and down my spine
  Down in his barn
  My uncle preserved for me an old machine –
  For fifty-odd years
  To keep it as new has been his dearest dream

  I strip away the old debris, that hides a shining car
  A brilliant red Barchetta, from a better, vanished time
  Fire up the willing engine, responding with a roar!
  Tires spitting gravel, I commit my weekly crime…

  Wind in my hair –
  Shifting and drifting –
  Mechanical music
  Adrenalin surge –

  Well-weathered leather
  Hot metal and oil
  The scented country air
  Sunlight on chrome
  The blur of the landscape
  Every nerve aware
  …
Red Barchetta - Rush - Moving Pictures - 1981

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#227

Post by kcexn »

davewritescode wrote: post #192
xanathar wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading somewhere that the estimated efficiency gain of having 2 gears on the Taycan is 5%. On a typical 60kWh battery car, that's 3kWh... hardly worth the effort nor the cost. On the Taycan it makes sense because top speed. For any "normal" EV where top speed is not a concern, it's probably not a choice that makes sense.

I suspect it makes a big difference in range at higher speeds that Germans and Americans drive at on the highway. One of the most disappointing things about the Model3 is how quickly the range starts to dip at left lane traffic speeds here in the Northeast. There’s large stretches of the drive between NYC and Boston that have middle and left lane traffic moving at 80 MPH and what’s an easy task for a gas car means ad…

Constant speeds on the highway should be the most efficient forms of driving. The only force the motors need to generate is the force required to overcome air resistance, this is going to be true of both ICE and electric.

The range dip may instead be because of lower battery temperatures (from all of the wind). Better battery thermal management at high speeds might help.

Higher energy density batteries will also comfortably overcome this problem. In the future I can see EV's that advertise fixed ranges, so that you don't get arbitrary range dips. They'll do this by over dimensioning the batteries and using better battery management software to make sure that more than 95-99% of your drives will be able to go at least the advertised range

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#228

Post by postalrat »

xxs wrote: post #74
ultrarunner wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AC clocks can sync their motors to the grid frequency, making it another perfectly valid mechanism of counting time. The grid frequency is very consistent.

>The grid frequency is very consistent. This is not true. It does change a bit under heavy load and the req. to keep it constant are far from perfect. There are timers that use the AC freq. but they are far from precise compared to a quartz crystal oscillator ones. A low effort [0] stackexchange search. [0]: https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/57878/how-pr...

It looks like they do compensation for fluctuations. If done property it could basically be as good as the clock on your phone and never need to be set.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#229

Post by manual89 »

culopatin wrote: post #72
GnarfGnarf wrote: post #13

As a clutch enthusiast, I would welcome this innovation if it actually improved EV motor performance. If its only purpose is to simulate the ICE experience, I'm not interested.

The only thing the clutch is good for is to get the tires loose with a clutch kick or to detach the engine drag from the wheels if one so desired.

Yep, I'd be interested in this psuedo-manual only if it simulated this aspect of the ICE original.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#230

Post by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS »

davewritescode wrote: post #197
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nissan does this with their CVTs as well. Apparently they found that people didn't really like the "all one gear" feel, so they programmed in "gear changes" where the CVT changes ratio like an automatic. You still get the CVT advantage when going up a hill or stomping on the accelerator, though. They've been phasing out their CVTs in favor of traditional automatics, though.

They’re phasing them out because they’re total junk. The Jatco CVT is so unreliable it’s been known to die at 30k miles and has cost Nissan a fortune in lawsuits and recalls.

I've heard this, but have yet to experience it.
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