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'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

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Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#221
Yeah this is definitely a problem, but I blame the companies. On the one hand, yes, for a long time there have been a lot of people that don't do much work. They should've been firing those people long ago, but they I guess were too scared/defensive. They felt it was better for business to just keep them.

But now there is a big uptick in employees not working much, and I think the cause is just that companies are so disconnected from people. For example, Sundar wants people to be more "customer-focused" but everywhere at Google, all anyone talks about is this metric and that metric. Customers are just treated as a number to be aggregated into a metric. They're really not talking about specific customer problems. And they're not empowering employees to have vision for how to solve specific customer problems overall imo.

Also, speaking of their own employees as people, they're similarly disconnected. They just treat employees as part of a metric too to a large extent. And what does that lead to? Employees that also care mostly about that metrics ($) and not building cool, assistive/helpful products.

I mean it all comes back to incentives of companies trying to grow their stock value. So it's really that and not out-of-touch CEOs. But although a recession is heartbreaking, we do need to regain some sense of reality imo. Perhaps return to technology that's actually trying to assist people or fix things in the world. One can hope.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#222

Maybe it’s not the employees fault, but the management who hired them… or maybe it’s the fact that it takes forever to get anything done at FAANG nowadays. Or maybe, just maybe, interviewing based on esoteric computer science problems isn’t the best way to identify high performing builders.. but a great way of identifying people who can hack a process to secure maximal reward. Look, if I can ‘crack the coding intervi…

> Look, if I can ‘crack the coding interview’, then I can certainly crack ‘how to do as little work as possible and stack paper to the ceiling while my stock vests’. What's worse, many of the jaded people going through the motions probably started out gung-ho but then got frustrated to see how little impact they were really able to have and eventually became checked out. These kinds of things are self fulfilling prop…

I can't think of any work to be done for a Meta company that I'd find meaningful in any way. I imagine there are plenty of people who only figured this out for themselves after coming on board.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s no way you can sustain 8 hours/day of productive work 5 days a week as a developer. It’s not working a field or packing boxes, there’s a mental component that gets exhausted over time.

And more than that - it's abstract problem solving. Sometimes the problem is never gonna have an answer until I am washing my dishes after breakfast tomorrow. My subconscious & creativity can't be sped up. It's this idiocy that you can convert time into software at a fixed rate that got us into this mess.

aka "The Mythical Man Month" [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#224

Glad these guys seem to finally be noticing. I was a software engineering manager at a lean, high-margin, profitable start-up based in the NYC area starting in the late 2000s. We were acquired in 2014 by a very typical (for the time) SV-based competitor that had raised hundreds of millions in an IPO a few years earlier. Our acquirers had yet to see a single quarter of profit, of course. I and my team had so many good…

> I remember the engineers on my team from HQ explaining to me that my proposed stand-up meeting schedule wouldn't work beacuse their intramural basketball league scheduled their games for that time. Meanwhile, in our low-perqs atmosphere in NY, distractions were limited and productivity was high. We also all made money. Your standup meeting could've been an email. Their immovable basketball game (quality of life) is…

I would go to the office to play basketball with my team. I'd think that it'd build team chemistry and cross team collaboration.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#225
>Realistically, there are probably a bunch of people at the company who shouldn’t be here. And part of my hope by raising expectations and having more aggressive goals, and just kind of turning up the heat a little bit, is that I think some of you might just say that this place isn’t for you. And that self-selection is okay with me.

He might realize that nobody cares about Facebook, they just care about their fat compensations for relatively little work (according to him). Honestly, aside from the experience of working with technology at that scale, are there a lot of other reasons to work at Facebook? I think we all are recognizing its had its time in the spotlight and its on its way out.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#226
post #213
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when the last time was that Mark or Sundar actually wrote any code they pushed to prod That would be a surpreme waste of company money, and probably they have engineers working for them who are far better developers than they are.

Would it? I understand your point, but the counterpoint is that the leaders are in a position to make big changes if something is broken. They could attempt to push some simple change and see glaring process and onboarding problems, which nobody has been interested in prioritizing, and then make them top priority, saving everyone time.

That sounds good in theory but most leaders are so removed from engineering that it would take them a week ramp up to produce even the most basic tiny change/feature to push to production. A VP should not be spending one week of his or her time doing that. They should rely on engineers to identify and fix whatever is broken at that level. That's why we have staff+ engineers.

But that's also pretty divorced from the topic of what makes good interview questions. There's no way that a VP who spent a week to push out a color change to a button in prod would have any meaningful insight into how to change the coding interviews. That should also be left up to the engineers themselves to decide.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I remember the engineers on my team from HQ explaining to me that my proposed stand-up meeting schedule wouldn't work beacuse their intramural basketball league scheduled their games for that time. Meanwhile, in our low-perqs atmosphere in NY, distractions were limited and productivity was high. We also all made money. Your standup meeting could've been an email. Their immovable basketball game (quality of life) is…

Of all the types of meetings that could be emails, stand-ups are at the very bottom of the list. A well run, efficient stand-up can head off a day's worth of productivity sucking emails and Slack messages with a 10 min conversation.

A 10 minute conversation can be had outside of a stand-up meeting, and without wasting the time of the people who don't need to be part of it.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#228
post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when the last time was that Mark or Sundar actually wrote any code they pushed to prod That would be a surpreme waste of company money, and probably they have engineers working for them who are far better developers than they are.

At one point Waffle House required all of its senior executives to spend time each year working on the line. (They probably still do I just haven't checked in a few years). They feel this is important for their management team to more viscerally understand the lived experiences of the people working, identify issues in their processes and technology, and generally foster team spirit among their staff.

I think there's a story in the news today about Taco Bell doing the same thing.

More relevant to tech -- Automattic, Klaviyo and probably a lot of other companies require people in certain positions to do customer service rotations. Including C-level execs.

I haven't heard of a version of that for coding, though.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not a conspiracy theory, I work for Amazon - for a decade. I love it - best job I've ever had. And historically, while it's been a tough place to work, we've always been able to attract top talent. Partially - impactful work. Partially - stock doubles every year. Well guess what happened in 2020/2021? Despite incredible perseverance through the Pandemic, the stock stopped doubling. Meanwhile, Microsoft, Meta,…

Makes me wonder if junior developers are getting bait and switched. They get pulled away by the lure of money into an environment that causes them to stagnate in their skill and career development, then companies pull the rug after only a few years of this high pay with layoffs. Now you've got hoards of developers with junior/mid skills who expect senior salaries and can't find jobs. Amazon doesn't want them anymore,…

> They get pulled away by the lure of money into an environment that causes them to stagnate in their skill and career development

Microsoft is in an insane number of markets, far more than Amazon. While at Microsoft I did everything from compilers to robots to wearables, and if I talk to 10 Microsoft alumni they will have a job history of working on a completely disparate set of amazing technologies.

If you are bored at Microsoft change teams. You can find teams writing assembly, or C++, or C#, or Rust, or JavaScript, or Typescript. You can find teams working on browser engines, on ISO standards, or consumer tech.

Get bored with all of that, go work on video games for awhile.

Re: 'Too many employees, but few work': Pichai, Zuckerberg sound the alarm

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the mindset of failure. The team standup has 10x more priority than some dumb basketball league

Agree to disagree. A team standup has close to no value. Having a high quality of life has a lot of value (including increased work productivity). As the California Milk Campaign went - happy cows make quality cheese, and happy workers make quality work... Again - one can be moved, the other cannot.

It has value to a single person - the person running the meeting. Everyone else zones out until it's their time to speak.
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