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“No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

bmj.com

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Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#221

Post by tsimionescu »

carabiner wrote: post #43
walrus01 wrote: post #19

I have a completely unscientific, subjective theory that some significant portion of depression in the population as a whole is caused by the economic circumstances that some people live in. Things like being trapped in a dead end job to keep healthcare benefits in the USA, living in a never ending treadmill of debt.

IOW: Are you ready for me to diagnose your totally normal reaction to our shitty society as mental illness so I can get you addicted to mind altering drugs for the rest of your life? https://imgur.com/Jb1mJyx Or as the Unabomber said, "Imagine a society that subjects people to conditions that make them terribly unhappy then gives them the drugs to take away their unhappiness. Science fiction? It is already happening…

It's very funny to describe SSRIs or SNRIs essentially as "happy pills". They are very unpleasant drugs to take, especially in the first month or so when starting to use them, and no one would be using them if they didn't feel there is a serious problem in their lives.

Not to mention, depression takes several forms, and not all of them are related to unhappiness. A common form is related to anxiety, with people experiencing a constant feeling that something awful is about to happen, sometimes getting terrible panic attacks. Given that many of these people live in objectively and subjectively extremely safe environments, much safer than at any other time in history, it's very hard to take seriously any environmental theory of this kind.

Edit: corrected one bad auto-correct typo ("problem", not "purulente") .

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#223

Post by ornornor »

When you look into the studies for antidepressants, the track record is abysmal.

They’re not innocuous, trigger serious side effects, some are hard to quit, but more importantly they only make a difference in people with extremely severe depression.

And doctors often downplay or don’t mention side effects honestly because they don’t want patients to not take them.

The studies justifying antidepressants as effective to the FDA are disturbingly flawed: people who were not responsive were excluded from the studies…

Anyway, I found this website very enlightening on the topic: https://www.theinnercompass.org/learn-unlearn/intervention/a... along with several Reddit threads from peoples experience with various antidepressants.

This is not medical advice and there are cases where antidepressants are necessary and make a difference. But if you have anything else than extreme depression and no other mental health conditions (schizophrenia etc), consider magic mushroomed: a few intentional trips can do wonders to see what’s troubling you from a different angle and help you move forward.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#224

Post by becquerel »

eurasiantiger wrote: post #175
JamesBarney wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must be reading very different history books than the ones I've read. The idea that we're somehow way more exploited than the people who came before us does not seem compatible with any history book I've ever read.

Before, the body was in chains, but the mind was free. Now, the mind is in chains.

What evidence do you have for this? Do you think chattel slaves of the USA weren't broken in mind - indoctrinated into Christianity, stripped of their original languages, culture and names? That was not some novel evil created by Southerners - it's the tried-and-true method for enslaving populations throughout history.

But I'm sure the existence of TikTok is an existential threat.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#225

Post by white_dragon88 »

eurasiantiger wrote: post #175
JamesBarney wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must be reading very different history books than the ones I've read. The idea that we're somehow way more exploited than the people who came before us does not seem compatible with any history book I've ever read.

Before, the body was in chains, but the mind was free. Now, the mind is in chains.

[dead]

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#227

Post by hoseja »

JamesBarney wrote: post #168
smolder wrote: post #122

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess the prominence of depression is largely caused by a broken interface with the world at large. The traps created by modern society wherein you struggle for other people's benefit are better designed than ever before. What our social machine procedurally treats as progress is advances in subjugation. Depression may often be an artifact of "efficiency" with respect to extracting v…

You must be reading very different history books than the ones I've read. The idea that we're somehow way more exploited than the people who came before us does not seem compatible with any history book I've ever read.

Turns out it's more efficient to keep the cattle somewhat happy. Doesn't change a thing when it comes time to get steak.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#228

Post by philliphaydon »

mjfl wrote: post #156
philliphaydon wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know how and why SSRIs work in regards to serotonin. We don’t understand why some people produce little or absorb serotonin too quickly requiring SSRIs drugs to manage it.

right because what serotonergic synapses do is they tickle the other neurons to make them happier right?

We know that a group of people who suffer from depression have lower serotonin levels when compared to someone who is considered... not depressed. And we know that SSRI's prohibit or prevent the bodies ability absorb serotonin allowing it to accumulate and be more effective and pull it in line with someone who is not depressed, resulting in the depressed person becoming less or not depressed.

So. I'm unsure how my statement is untrue in response to the parent statement stating we have no idea how they work.

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#229

Post by Mo3 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #18

SSRIs raise extra-synaptic serotonin levels within the first hour of taking them. However, their efficacy against depression takes weeks or even months to manifest. We've known this for decades, and as a result the "chemical imbalance" theory of depression hasn't been a real contender in depression research for a long, long time. The key thing to understand is that serotonin levels don't have to be low for SSRIs to i…

Funnily enough the one I used to take (Escitalopram) apparently has been found to begin permanently altering brain function after only a few hours of first ingestion. I was pretty happy with it. No pun intended

Re: “No convincing evidence” that depression is caused by low serotonin levels

#230

Post by armatav »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #58
mathgladiator wrote: post #53

As a member of the anti-psychiatry side after seeing primary care doctors wreck my mother... I think we will see a sea change in how we approach this with things like psychedelics. I recently got treated with six weeks of Ketamine, and it works. If you ever thought about rebooting your brain, then I recommend it. However, you really have to surrender yourself to the experience; it is a very intentional act.

Ketamine treatment is interesting, but it's not really a replacement for SSRIs. The anti-depressant effects of Ketamine are unfortunately relatively short-lived. Tolerance also seems to develop to the effects over time. There are some adventurous providers experimenting with frequent ketamine dosing over long periods of time, but the results haven't really been great from what I've seen. Also, a psychedelic experienc…

So unbelievably unread and wrong.

Ketamines anti-depressant effects are some of the longest lasting in pharmaceutical history.

Tolerance is carefully managed by your infusion provider to not build up.

The long term efficacy is insanely good - which is why we approved it in the first place.

The psychedelic experience is necessary to approach the more permanent end of the spectrum - this is by the "evidence" that you are not reading.

SSRIs continue to be a mainstay because they aren't $800 per session with insurance and have an extreme margin. They are far, far, far lower efficacy.

What are you doing my man? You just straight lied in almost every sentence.

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