Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#221

Post by kqr » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 4:02 PM UTC

xhkkffbf wrote: post #210

baron816 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, a big chunk of the labor shortages in hospitality, child care, etc. we’ve seen the last two years is a direct result of Amazon hiring lots and lots of people. And as shitty as the conditions of those jobs may be, they’re often still better than where they’re coming from. Sticking labels to boxes and moving them around a warehouse all day may still be better than dealing with handsy bar hounds or screaming childr…

While I like the idea of unions, I can say that they've been a disappointment in my career. One of my colleagues desperately needed the protection of the union at work when he got caught up in office politics. Some of his rivals for a big promotion got him accused of something that had nothing to do with work. It was all cancel culture. The union, though, didn't back him up at all. They make a big show about somehow…

This is not a problem with unions as a concept, but rather with the huge, centralised, bureaucratic, political entities they have become in practise. That type of organisation has some benefits, but I believe federations of highly local unions would be more effective for helping individual people deal with specific pickles.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#222

Post by hedora » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 4:03 PM UTC

galleywest200 wrote: post #203

hedora wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon rose wages and have some the highest warehouse worker wages around, to the point where they are creating upward pressure on wages in other industries. Their jobs also are super stressful and burn people out. These things are not contradictory. Anecdotally, in support of the comment you are replying to, Starbucks poached our babysitter. $25/hour is the market rate for babysitters around here, and $100-$150 a ni…

This seems like a poor comparison. Your babysitter left a part time job (100/25 = 4 hours of work per day) for a full time one and can now afford a car.

Yeah; good for her. The point is that Starbucks and Amazon have created an ever raising floor for the price of labor.

They're low-skill/training jobs, so no skilled job is able to pay less than that. (Also, the Starbucks thing is part time, and she had babysat for other people too -- babysitting probably made sense at 2x the hourly rate of a part time job, but $25 isn't 2x anymore.)

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#223

Post by spacemanmatt » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 4:03 PM UTC

DoughnutHole wrote: post #129

q1w2 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if what is published from time to time on media is actually true That's a big IF. Unions were invented after the onset of the industrial revolution to combat truly unsafe work conditions in industrial settings where worker's dying was common. OSHA did away with all that. The current generation of "bad work condition" complaints is around getting adequate bathroom breaks.

This is pure historical revisionism concocted solely to diminish modern struggles for worker organisation. Wages are and have always been the primary driver of unionising. The main motivation was never mustache twirling capitalist charicatures shoveling children into furnaces as fuel or some other unambiguous evil that we have since banished. Conditions have always been part of the bargain, but the goal has always be…

> shoveling children into furnaces

https://thediplomat.com/2021/07/factory-fire-reveals-banglad...

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#224

Post by flatline » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 4:04 PM UTC

xhkkffbf wrote: post #210

baron816 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, a big chunk of the labor shortages in hospitality, child care, etc. we’ve seen the last two years is a direct result of Amazon hiring lots and lots of people. And as shitty as the conditions of those jobs may be, they’re often still better than where they’re coming from. Sticking labels to boxes and moving them around a warehouse all day may still be better than dealing with handsy bar hounds or screaming childr…

While I like the idea of unions, I can say that they've been a disappointment in my career. One of my colleagues desperately needed the protection of the union at work when he got caught up in office politics. Some of his rivals for a big promotion got him accused of something that had nothing to do with work. It was all cancel culture. The union, though, didn't back him up at all. They make a big show about somehow…

I’m reading this as, he made racist or otherwise hateful statements in a semi-public forum and nobody was going to put their organization’s name behind that. It’s an interesting problem. On the one hand it’s a free country you can say what you please and your employee can fire you for it. On the other hand I think it’s inhumane for someone to lose their job - and most notably healthcare - because they are one of a large number of knob heads out there and were unwise enough to advertise it.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#225

Post by smugma » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 4:05 PM UTC

smugma wrote: post #134

photochemsyn wrote: post #10

Realistically an Amazon-wide union is the only way Amazon workers are going to get decent wage increases. If the USA is going to allow manufacturers to outsource the majority of well-paid (~$30/hr avg) manufacturing jobs to Mexico and China, without having any cross-border capital flow penalities (neoliberal globalism in a nutshell), then the major employers like Amazon and Walmart are going to have to double their w…

Amazon has significantly increased wages. They were at the forefront of the $15 wage, more than double the federal minimum wage. I think at the time Walmart was at $10 or $11. I live in very liberal SF but outside of my bubble, I hear people complain that it’s not possible to hire Nannies/housecleaners/employees anymore when Amazon and Starbucks pay $18/hr. Seems like the answer is easy: pay them more or make the job…

Additional context: it wasn’t until 2015 that Walmart raised its minimum wage from the federal minimum to $9/hr. It’s now $12.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#226

Post by hedora » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 4:05 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #209

hedora wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazon rose wages and have some the highest warehouse worker wages around, to the point where they are creating upward pressure on wages in other industries. Their jobs also are super stressful and burn people out. These things are not contradictory. Anecdotally, in support of the comment you are replying to, Starbucks poached our babysitter. $25/hour is the market rate for babysitters around here, and $100-$150 a ni…

> Starbucks poached our babysitter. $25/hour is the market rate for babysitters around here Seems like $25/hour was the market rate.

I get the impression the dollar amount didn't change. Instead, the existence of the market did. (None of the other parents we know have been able to find babysitters either.)

Presumably, it'll even out after the labor shortages subside.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#227

Post by jmyeet » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 4:07 PM UTC

photochemsyn wrote: post #10

Realistically an Amazon-wide union is the only way Amazon workers are going to get decent wage increases. If the USA is going to allow manufacturers to outsource the majority of well-paid (~$30/hr avg) manufacturing jobs to Mexico and China, without having any cross-border capital flow penalities (neoliberal globalism in a nutshell), then the major employers like Amazon and Walmart are going to have to double their w…

This.

A lot of people, even economists, conflate the freedom of trade with the free movement of capital. They are not the same and not equivalent. I like to point people to this comic [1] that someone made when the TPP was hot news as it accurately describes this in a very accessible way.

Neoliberalism serves the interests of the capital-owning class.

[1]: https://economixcomix.com/home/tpp/

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#228

Post by somehnguy » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 4:07 PM UTC

School-Cotton wrote: post #179

tjpnz wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone would get 213 dollars a year extra if just their CEO didn't receive any compensation. Amazon employs approximately 1 million people in the United States and Andy Jassy received 213 million total comp in 2021.

So, practically none.

Their example was only a single person cutting salary, so practically meaningless. And I would also argue, in bad faith with the design of proving a point with bad data.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#229

Post by egh » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 4:09 PM UTC

fatbird wrote: post #150

noisy_boy wrote: post #5

> The ALU may ask you to sign an authorization card or share a QR code to fill out an online authorization card. > This is a legally binding document Ooh scary ... is the employment contract signed by Amazon's employees not legally binding? How is it Amazon's business what their grown-ass employees can or cannot sign? > By signing a card or filling out an online authorization form, you are providing the ALU your pers…

If ALU gets over 50% of employees to sign the card, they can bypass a vote and declare themselves the union and petition for recognition of such to the NLRB (which will grant it unless Amazon can demonstrate malfeasance somehow). It’s a common tactic by unions and a common response by employers is to carefully but thoroughly explain this tactic to employees—-which they’re allowed to do, but it’s totally illegal to sa…

That is simply not true. That could be the case in the near future (https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/how-the-nlr...) but it is simply not true now. Amazon can always force a vote if 50% of members of the unit sign a card.

Re: Amazon instructs New York workers “don't sign” union cards

#230

Post by lotsofpulp » Sat, Jul 16, 2022, 4:10 PM UTC

hedora wrote: post #226

lotsofpulp wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Starbucks poached our babysitter. $25/hour is the market rate for babysitters around here Seems like $25/hour was the market rate.

I get the impression the dollar amount didn't change. Instead, the existence of the market did. (None of the other parents we know have been able to find babysitters either.) Presumably, it'll even out after the labor shortages subside.

Have you tried offering $2,500 per hour? The market exists. There are babies that need babysitting, and people capable of babysitting.

What does not exist is an intersection of the supply and demand curves of people willing and able to pay what people capable of babysitting want to get paid for babysitting.