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Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

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Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#221
post #10

James Clerk Maxwell united electricity and magnetism with a pen and paper. Einstein discovered special and general relativity in the same way. Has theoretical physics advanced enough now that such pen and paper discoveries are all but over, and the only way to continue making progress is to dedicate an ever larger share of the global economy's productive capacity to building larger and more expensive experiments? Wha…

> James Clerk Maxwell united electricity and magnetism with a pen and paper. Einstein discovered special and general relativity in the same way. > Has theoretical physics advanced enough now that such pen and paper discoveries are all but over, and the only way to continue making progress is to dedicate an ever larger share of the global economy's productive capacity to building larger and more expensive experiments?…

>So maybe what we need is the right breakthrough in math?

Funny you mention that, only recently I was reading a review paper on the state of constructive quantum field theory [0]. In the outlook section the author writes

>Why haven’t these models of greatest physical interest been constructed yet (in any mathematically rigorous sense which preserves the basic principles constantly evoked in heuristic QFT and does not satisfy itself with an uncontrolled approximation)? Certainly, one can point to the practical fact that only a few dozen people have worked in CQFT. This should be compared with the many hundreds working in string theory and the thousands who have worked in elementary particle physics. Progress is necessarily slow if only a few are working on extremely difficult problems

But they also say

> It may also be the case that a completely new approach is required

This kind of mathematical physics is generally considered a part of mathematics rather than physics, and this paper is talking about formulating a rigorous mathematical framework and elucidating conceptual ideas rather than about making new predictions, but the idea that new mathematics is required is certainly not a crazy one.

[0]: https://arxiv.org/abs/1203.3991

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nightmare" was how physicists themselves characterize the situation we are in, and have done for at least 15 years. Look at the 2007 article linked in the article above: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.315.5819.1657 Jonathan Ellis is on the record there describing the scenario we find ourselves in now as "the real five-star disaster". (you can get the full article by putting the link into scholar.google.…

I think people here should imagine it like an infrastructure investment with an extremely bad ROI. People are using it and it's well-made, but the return on our investment would never have justified the cost in time or effort. The whole history of high energy physics is a back-and-forth between models and experiment. We get to a new energy level, try some things that the models are ambiguous about, and previously we'…

No post body was provided.

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#223
post #161

There is an existential angst amongst particle physicists because they all understand that they are the thoroughbred pets of the scientific world. Even if they find something, it doesn't matter, because they are working in energy regimes that are not reachable in the ordinary physics of the universe as it exists today. Even the discovery that the Higgs Boson as a lighter mass than predicted, while intellectually intr…

> because they are working in energy regimes that are not reachable in the ordinary physics of the universe as it exists today. This isn't accurate. Actually because of the higher energies (> 10 orders of magnitude) naturally found throughout the universe one could argue to concentrate more on collecting data of those relatively ubiquitous events in the observable universe instead of going through the route in obtain…

Yes, what you say is true. My argument was very poorly made.

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#224
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That feels like a false dichotomy. This is pushing forward research into theory, even with highly positive results it's completely unknown whether any of those results actually result in any progress for the human race other than knowledge, and at a base cost of €21 billion that knowledge comes with a huge opportunity cost. We face so many tangible risks right now that €21 billion invested elsewhere into things that…

Isn't the false dichotomy that if we spend €21 billion on a particle accelerator then we must take it from other research into advancing humanity instead of taking it from other areas that don't provide benefit to humanity as a whole (though they do provide benefit to some groups at equal or greater cost to others). >'is spending this much money disproving philosophical arguments justifiable right now?' should rightl…

Okay, we need to take that money from somewhere. There is only so much labor on the planet, and that is what the money is buying in the end. (I'm including corruption in labor here) Some labor is more valuable than others, and we can debate how much we want to spend, but in the end if we have someone do X they could do Y instead. Sometimes Y is sit around doing nothing, sometimes it is valuable.

The problem here is we don't know what will be discovered and if it will be useful. Cheap Science Fiction FTL without all the time dilation - very valuable. Add half a decimal point to our models - probably can't be used for anything and so less valuable than a game. I have no idea, I just picked unlikely two extremes.

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe there's nothing else to discover AFAICS that is not one of the options; there are mysteries and contradictions whose explanations remain to be discovered. But maybe we can't discover more using the LHC (which I doubt).

There's the mythology of the heavens being held up by the titan Atlas, who rests on top of a cow, which rests on top of a turtle... the kiddy version continues on top of another turtle, on top of... I once had a vision -- yes, a vision, something deep came to me as I laid half-awake -- that after a few dozen turtles the actual ground was made of jackstraw[1]. It rested on a firm tangle. I've always felt since then th…

> the world and the universe themselves are made of contradictions.

In logic, it's said that from a contradiction you can validly deduce any proposition.

The idea that contradictions are fundamental is horrifying; it implies that any attempt to reason about the world is doomed. I don't know how it would affect me if I believed that. I hope you have a good therapist!

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#226
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That feels like a false dichotomy. This is pushing forward research into theory, even with highly positive results it's completely unknown whether any of those results actually result in any progress for the human race other than knowledge, and at a base cost of €21 billion that knowledge comes with a huge opportunity cost. We face so many tangible risks right now that €21 billion invested elsewhere into things that…

Isn't the false dichotomy that if we spend €21 billion on a particle accelerator then we must take it from other research into advancing humanity instead of taking it from other areas that don't provide benefit to humanity as a whole (though they do provide benefit to some groups at equal or greater cost to others). >'is spending this much money disproving philosophical arguments justifiable right now?' should rightl…

Well, if you spend the 21 billion on health research and life extension, you can live to see spending 21 billion on physics research.

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#227
post #152

A few years ago, I went to a public interview/chat with Rainer Weiss in NYC. He described years of work in which the LIGO team found inventive ways to make their systems more precise. They just kept knocking down orders-of-magnitude. Still, after taking new measurements, they found nothing. No gravitational waves. Then the interviewer asked him if he was discouraged at this point in his career. I loved his response.…

I know Ray and this is an accurate retelling of this line, but it's comparing apples to oranges in the context of this thread. He knew LIGO was rapidly approaching the necessary sensitivity to make great discoveries -- a threshold. The LHC experiments may already have the sensitivity necessary to make their great discoveries, and may just be chasing diminishing returns at this point. Big difference.

Re: Ten years after the Higgs, physicists face the nightmare of finding nothing else

#228
post #27

At least they are finding nothing and confirming they are finding nothing. Less scrupulous operators might be always finding something even if its not there. So that's a sign of good science. Maybe there's something they haven't found because there's so much data? Mix things up and look again? Change assumptions? Or as someone I know likes to say to various smaller humans: have you looked around the couch? Really? Ar…

Quoted post unavailable.

Hey, can you please not fulminate on HN? It sounds like you might know quite a bit about the field (or some of it), but commenting like this degrades discussion and evokes worse from others. If you would make your substantive points thoughtfully, and share some of what you know, that would be much better.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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