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In defense of coding interviews

biggestfish.substack.com

221–230 of 391 posts

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#221

Perhaps I’m biased as someone with a better than average sense of algorithms and discrete math, but I think such interview questions have a lot of utility, provided the job will require some analysis of algorithms, eg you’re working on the platform, or a solver/optimizer. Obviously it’s pants on head stupid to do that if you want a web dev to make a pretty app, tie frameworks together and liaise with 3rd party integr…

> However, I think many employers want the crème of such devs who are also good at algos.

Which is not going to work for the vast majority of devs and jobs.

Most devs either don’t care or need to care about algorithms, and the few devs who do, spend most days not using them.

This would be akin to asking a civil engineer to build a wooden road bridge. Having the skills is great, but how often is the company going to need them?

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#222
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you have to prepare for the interview, doesn't that suggest the assessment isn't representative of day-to-day programming skills? In fact, it suggests the exact opposite. With zero preparation, I could go to an interview with you right now and tell you anything you wanted to know about designing a database schema, how to get any kind of data out of that schema, how to make that data available via an API, how to ca…

Interviewing is assessing how a person would perform, not an actual day to day collaboration. There is a gap. You do not talk like you would to a colleague. You have a limited time and it's more one-sided to even the playing field. It's worth preparing for to overcome the gap. It's like a dance. Your are supposed to lead deriving the solution, interviewer is supposed to follow closely and judge your performance. If y…

I would never change the way I speak to someone just because they're interviewing me. If you're interviewing me it's with a view to working with me on your team a few months later. You would surely want to see the real me, not some constrained version. Maybe it's an age thing, but I'm comfortable enough with my skills and my knowledge that I don't feel the need to put on an act. And remember that you're interviewing the interviewers as much as they're interviewing you.

Also, I would also be quite surprised if Google didn't allow candidates to Google information during the interview...

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#223

Before we criticize the current interview format and propose alternatives, we need to understand how we got here first. This is my understanding of what happened (I wasn't there for most of this!). Leetcode-style interviews became popular in the mid 00s, primarily because they were used by hot tech companies of the time. The thing to understand is that at that time, the idea of asking people to write code during an i…

> the idea of asking people to write code during an interview what sort of revolutionary

And I think it's a great idea, personally I would never consider working anywhere that hired devs without seeing them write some code. But my problem is with the types of questions asked at many companies, specifically the types that require weeks (or months!) of prepping.

During my last job search one interview that stood out (positively) was a problem around parsing some HTTP headers (it started simple and then had layers of complexity added as I solved each one). It was honestly one of the best questions I've seen in an interview as it requires the candidate to be able to write code and solve a problem but without requiring/expecting the candidate to have prepped beforehand to learn (or brush up on) theoretical stuff far removed from the types of problems we actually solve on a daily bases (evidence of this disconnect is demonstrated by the fact people need to prep).

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do your developers have to work in 2 week sprints and forced to work on tasks split into sub 1-day part so they never have any real autonomy? Then you aren't giving your developers more freedom than Google. And if you aren't working like that then you aren't doing Scrum. Google gives even junior developers multi month projects to own, manage and complete. No Scrum shop gives developers that level of autonomy, not eve…

If a company is really following scrum, then the developers are creating and managing their own tickets

Yes, nobody else could write tickets that reliably takes less than a day other than the team. The problem is that your day to day structure gets decided by a brainstorming session held every other week, that might make sense in some contexts but mandating that every developer has to work that way is exactly what I mean that you aren't allowed to have any responsibility.

To me it seems like Scrum was designed to make developers have as little individual ownership/responsibility as possible while still being able to produce relevant code. I see the merit in that, you don't have to tell me why minimizing individual ownership/responsibility could be a good thing. But I strongly believe that individual ownership is necessary to properly capitalize on the creativity of individual talent, otherwise its mostly wasted.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with b) and c). A is a bit forced though as tobacco companies faked studies to show that what they sell is healthy even though they knew it was horribly bad for you, I don't see how Google is anything like that with respect to hiring processes. If they talked about ads or search then the likeness would make sense, but I don't see it for hiring. But I agree that Google is different than most companies. There t…

> But I agree that Google is different than most companies. There the main thing is ads and search and infrastructure to run both of those. One of the Marques Brownlee videos mentions that when he met Eric Schmidt, Schmidt mentions that every problem Google have were scaling. If you look at it from his perspective, it would make a lot of sense why algo is so important for Google interviews. He applied it not only in…

"CEO Eric Eric Schmidt stood out because he 'was the only candidate who had been to Burning Man.'" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Schmidt#cite_note-31

Funny how the "objective tests" that leaders apply to grunts never get applied to the leaders themselves.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#227
I agree with this articles ending, what you offer though is a hybrid of pair programming, what we ought to say is that effectively we need to have a conversation, trust me i wont do a coding game with you, ill just ignore you, but a conversation like a human being, that i can do and i'm more than willing, and yes ask me anything because i will ask you too, the interview is a two way process, many of us learned that the hard way, therefore we wont repeat the same mistakes.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And if you aren't working like that then you aren't doing Scrum" I kindly disagree. You seem to have worked at a very stressfull place. In my experience that has nothing to do with it being "true scrum TM" or not. In any case, happy for you that you got out.

Always this "if you have any complaints about Scrum then you aren't doing it correctly" with no explanation how you'd fix the problems I talked about. Also the leetcode interview is cargo-culted from big tech companies like Google and Scrum is cargo-culted from big tech consultants. They don't fit well together, having both means your company just picked the most popular/simple way to do each part without considering…

Scrum is like communism, it doesn't work, stop obsessing over it.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Always this "if you have any complaints about Scrum then you aren't doing it correctly" with no explanation how you'd fix the problems I talked about. Also the leetcode interview is cargo-culted from big tech companies like Google and Scrum is cargo-culted from big tech consultants. They don't fit well together, having both means your company just picked the most popular/simple way to do each part without considering…

Scrum does not mean "no freedom" or "no autonomy" it just says lets think about what we're going to do and try to follow a plan for the next week or two. Of course the individual software developer should be the one responsible to forming, adapting, and updating this plan (and it definitely should contain " collaborate with stakeholders, build prototypes and get feedback etc,") (of course, there is some level of 'com…

You're in the scrum cult dude, get over it.

Re: In defense of coding interviews

#230
post #56

The dirty secret is that it’s never about the coding skills. It’s about the person’s behavior, the way he/she interacts with you. It’s about the person’s culture, tabs vs space, and that kind of things. And it’s mostly about whether you like the person or not. And I think it’s fine. You mainly need to be sure that the person knows what a for loop is, other than that, most people are ok at programming. What really mat…

SWE to lawyer here.

The analogs of the traditional coding interview in the law school world are the LSAT and classroom timed memory tests. Both have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with being a lawyer or the kinds of activities that lawyers actually do.

What they are are intelligence tests. They are easy ways for judges and top tier law firms to tell if you are "one of them." You can get your foot in the door if you can perform, at a minimum, at a certain level. There are plenty of things you can do without 97+ percentile LSAT and A's in law school, but you are screened from the top echelon of work.

People object that this isn't fair and screens good people out -- false negatives. But experience has shown that it is effective and easy. Perhaps there is a better way, but this way seems to work well enough. There is little incentive, beyond some people complaining about it, to change a system that is working well.

I see the traditional leetcode interview in the same light. The point is to see if you can perform at a certain minimal level. Yes, it's arbitrary, and often unconnected to real life. But it is an effective way to gauge a minimum level of intelligence and competence. Not perfect, but easy and effective.

Finally, there is ego element to this. People who can perform at this level see these skills as a minimum qualification. They are uncomfortable seeing themselves in relation to others who cannot perform at this level. Knowing that their peers have similar minimum qualifications makes them feel safe and secure about their status. This is not a criticism, just an observation about human nature. People in a club need a shared identity.

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