Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Xinjiang Police Files

xinjiangpolicefiles.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 338 posts

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#221

Post by Sporktacular »

thriftwy wrote: post #209
Sporktacular wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give away? Give to who? What are you talking about? You're pivoting constantly and not defending your arguments. Why should anyone take your own words more seriously than you do?

I am defending my arguments. "treatment of the predominantly Muslim Chechnians by Russia" is pure BS FUD accusations. Chechens are mostly treating themselves in the last 15 years. And it turns out relatively benign, compared to stuff like ISIS, Afghanistan, Xinjiang, Lybia, Israel, Yemen. And that's the context of early XXI century, there's really no other one. You're not the World Police to judge others, likely you…

You said Russia fought for a "stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works". Jataman606 says it's disingenuous to suggest that - and you just let it go.

And he's right. Grozny was demolished, no civil society left, horrendous human rights violations, no justice for survivors, just appeals to the corrupt, absolute power of Kadyrov. To say that sort-of-works is disingenuous and lets Russia off the hook for its part in backing him.

You don't have to be the world police to condemn atrocities. Just like you don't have to defend Russia in order to criticise other powers.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#223

Post by qiskit »

shellfishgene wrote: post #33

I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation, given that at least parts of it really blow up over even minor anti-Islam actions by single individuals quite regularly. The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region, which would seem far worse than some person drawing a cartoon. But maybe…

> I'm always surprised how little interest there seems to be from the international muslim community in the Xinjiang situation

What international muslim community? And if one existed, why would the international muslim community care about US/European funded anti-china propaganda which has nothing to do with islam and everything to do with ethnic separatism.

We hate muslims. Killed millions of muslims. We hate chinese people. Killed millions of chinese people. But somehow we care about chinese muslims? How does that work? Why is it we are trying to pit chinese and muslims against each other?

> The actions of China seem at least in part aimed at extinguishing Islam as a religion in the region

Did china become zionist all of a sudden? Also, I thought it was a genocide? What happened to the millions of uyghurs that was "exterminated"? What happened to the death camps? What happened to the millions of organs? They are trying to extinguish separatism.

> But maybe any reactions just don't make mainstream news.

Because it's literally manufactured propaganda that nobody believes. There are vlogs of muslims traveling to china all over social media.

First it was a genocide. Millions dead. Death camps all over china. That proved to be nonsense. Then it was cultural genocide. That proved to be nonsense. Now it's religious genocide. Which is even more laughable. The ughyurs aren't even the largest muslim ethnic group in china.

If you ever doubted that the media/news/etc were truly propaganda, just look into the uyghur "genocide". The media with the government agencies invented a genocide.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#224

Post by qiskit »

sva_ wrote: post #101

Looking through some of those detainee pictures, it is almost all men, and some older women. Gruesome implication. But I only looked through some.

> Looking through some of those detainee pictures, it is almost all men, and some older women

Makes a mockery of the "genocide" claim. If there was an actual genocide, it would be men, women and children. Like you see during the holocaust.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#225

Post by sgift »

GameOfFrowns wrote: post #54
Maakuth wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose it would be helpful if you provided some grounds on why you do not trust this foundation. There are other messages in this discussion showing distrust in the foundation and Dr. Zenz, but none provide background for that.

What would you even consider credible criticism? [0]Zenz is a born-again christian zealot who imagines himself to be on a mission against Satan (or in this case China) and who build his whole career on "uncovering" Chinese atrocities and aligning himself with questionable orgs like the Muslim Brotherhood. In our current economy where attention is currency, he has to come up with ever more outrageous material. Now tha…

I cannot read the full WSJ article and the teaser doesn't support your statement that he's on a "mission against China", only that "I feel very clearly led by God to do this". Since the teaser doesn't make it clear that 'this' refers to a "mission against China" I'd say it could also refer to uncovering the truth.

Everything else you wrote is basically conspiracy 101: "His anti-China activism is so clearly in line with US interests and CIA activities that it's no surprise he gets a lot of praise from establishment media." ... cause obviously, when someone critizes China it must be a campaign by the shadow cabal of CIA.

> If he's genuine, that's a pity, but a this point he is unfortunately "burned" and a detriment to Uyghur activism.

Burned by whom and for what? All I've read so far are accusations, no proof, not even a shred of evidence of wrongdoing. That someone is highly critical of something doesn't "burn" them in any way. If you have proof that he fabricated evidence feel free to share it.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#226

Post by refurb »

trasz wrote: post #218
refurb wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read your own link? The "Aftermath" section where several courts condemned those actions and awarded substantial awards to the victims. The City apologized. Independent commissions condemned the decision. Can you please list all of the acts of restitution that the Chinese government has done since 1989? Oh, and ignoring all that, you're posting an awful lot of whataboutisms . I count about 9 of them so far. W…

Ah, right, they apologised. That changes everything :-> What matters is that nobody - not a single one of perpetrators of a bombing organised by police, which killed five random kids, and this is ignoring reports of police shooting at survivors fleeing the fire - got punished. "The city" paid some (public) money, that's all. It's not whataboutism, it's showing that the claim that "public condemnation against China wi…

China denies the event. They just removed a memorial statue in Hong Kong.

Are you seriously arguing that response is better than the US?

Never mind crushing a democratic protest and killing thousands is in no way comparable to police trying to execute an arrest of a small group.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#227

Post by femiagbabiaka »

Melting_Harps wrote: post #177
refurb wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it funny when Israel is accuse of "controlling the borders of Gaza". I mean, by the same logic, the US controls the borders of Canada.

> I find it funny when Israel is accuse of "controlling the borders of Gaza". I mean, by the same logic, the US controls the borders of Canada. They literately prevent aid from coming into Gaza, and you think it's the same thing? Moreover, Palestinian fisherman aren't allowed to go beyond 1 mile out to shore as the Israeli State forbids them from going any further and are monitored and surveilled, under some obtuse j…

Sadly your point is proven by the direction the conversation has taken. Hasta victoria siempre.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#228

Post by trasz »

Melting_Harps wrote: post #180
free-malloc wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is nearly entirely wrong. It's entirely about power and god. Xi Jinping has cracked down on Christianity shutting down many churches. China has other ethnicities besides the Han, which don't speak Mandarin. If the Uyghurs had no faith they would be safe. There is little room for religion unless the religion is centralized and submissive to the state. In some sense religion undermines the state.

> In some sense religion undermines the state. In the 21st century, especially under the CCP, they're just competing forces more than direct adversaries, they both strive to do the same thing. And for most of History, the Church was the State. It's parallels are quite visible, and now most wars are fought not for the deliberate imposition of deities, but rather for the new pantheon of self-declared god's: political l…

>And for most of History, the Church was the State.

Would you agree that the "Party" in CCP is something entirely different from what this term means in the west, and that it's closer in its meaning to a secularised version of a centralised church?

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#229

Post by thriftwy »

Sporktacular wrote: post #221
thriftwy wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am defending my arguments. "treatment of the predominantly Muslim Chechnians by Russia" is pure BS FUD accusations. Chechens are mostly treating themselves in the last 15 years. And it turns out relatively benign, compared to stuff like ISIS, Afghanistan, Xinjiang, Lybia, Israel, Yemen. And that's the context of early XXI century, there's really no other one. You're not the World Police to judge others, likely you…

You said Russia fought for a "stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works". Jataman606 says it's disingenuous to suggest that - and you just let it go. And he's right. Grozny was demolished, no civil society left, horrendous human rights violations, no justice for survivors, just appeals to the corrupt, absolute power of Kadyrov. To say that sort-of-works is disingenuous and lets Russia off the hook for its pa…

Russia has got a stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works. Jataman606 did not really refute it, instead pivoting into biased history diving.

"No civil society left, horrendous human rights violations" is what there were before the Second Chechen war - there was an alpha version of ISIS there, with slave markets and kidnappings for ransom. Was it worth it fighting ISIS? Absolutely. Was it worth it fighting Ichkeria? Absolutely-ish.

I don't really like Kadyrov, but we are talking about a Muslim region and not yours and mine personal preferences. You seem to assume that any Muslim region would want, and implement, a liberal democratic power structure. Well, tough luck finding that between Iraq and Afghanistan. Or in Russia for that matter.

I just don't feel that it's an atrocity. The fate of Afghanistan is an atrocity. Chechnya, not so much, it's just people living up to their own political preferences and capabilities.

Re: The Xinjiang Police Files

#230

Post by refurb »

trasz wrote: post #216
watwut wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah. Note how the invocation of move bombing is not even attempt to compare the level of both countries crimes historically. It is literally just attempt to "since America has/did crimes, no one is allowed to criticize China/Israel/Russia". Moreover, while USA did in fact committed crimes either on own soil or internationally, claiming that it is exactly the same as China or Russia is just wrong. America has its own…

>It is literally just attempt to "since America has/did crimes, no one is allowed to criticize China/Israel/Russia". Not at all. Please read my comment in its context: it's a response to parent's claim that this can only happen in China, because in the West the public has the right to speak out and fix it - while in reality it happens too, and simply gets ignored, sometimes without even bothering to cover it up. Also…

Your entire argument is a whataboutism.

You’ve still failed to explain why China’s actions against Uyghur population shouldn’t be condemned.

Post reply on HN