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An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

scottaaronson.blog

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Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a natural consequence of the American myth/narrative that everyone is suited for academic high school and university. Other countries simply sort people into different schools much earlier, and spend the high school years teaching meaningful vocational skills to those not on the academic track, rather than wasting everyone's time.

It's possible this is a good thing. Though it's also possible sorting too early determines someone's life path before they are mature to understand their talents and abilities. So I don't think early sorting is superior to the American model because at least the American model can uplift late bloomers.

A famous example of this that absolutely blew my mind is Uğur Şahin.

For those not familiar, he is the founder of BioNTech, the German researchers who developed Pfizer's SARS-COV2 mRNA vaccine.

Uğur moved from Turkey to Germany at age 4. At the end of primary school his teacher had assigned him to 'hauptschule'. It was only because of a neighbour's intervention that he was later put through 'Gymnasium' i.e. on track to study 'higher' studies.

The rest is history, after med school he did a doctorate in Imunotherapy, he founded a 18billion revenue biotech company and saved countless lives with what we now call the Pfizer mRNA covid vaccine.

Had that primary teacher's decision been held it really would have been a 'butterfly effect' of catastrophic proportions for Humanity.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#222
post #27

From the original letter: While well-intentioned, we believe that many of the changes proposed by the CMF are deeply misguided and will disproportionately harm under-resourced students. Adopting them would result in a student population that is less prepared to succeed in STEM and other 4-year quantitative degrees in college. The CMF states that 'many students, parents, and teachers encourage acceleration beginning i…

I think you’re looking at it the wrong way. The job that the administrator is hired for is “make Black and White test scores identical.” With only the leverage of the school, and no broader socioeconomic levers, the only way to make this happen is to reduce all assessment to 1+1=? (Multiple choice)

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that the people crafting these proposals care. I think they truly believe they are doing the right thing. I personally think it's just increasingly popular, mistaken moral beliefs that inform these types of proposals. Some of the underlying beliefs: 1. Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability 2. Any observable differences between humans are merely the result of social factors 3. Any observable diff…

1. This is kind of a founding principle of the country, so... 2. This follows from #1, if we rule out nature then it must be nurture. Also, you must not be a parent if you'll accept "some kids are just dumb" as an excuse 3,4. Replace "oppression" with "competition". I think it might sound better to you. But the conclusion is the same. You want to prevent winners from accumulating an advantage, eliminating all others…

> 1. [All humans are of equal ability] is a founding principle of the country, so...

curious to learn how you arrived at this conclusion?

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#224
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand if you're saying that every kid is equally good at math. Or, similarly, that every kid that the same capacity for it or ability to pickup math concepts. Because it seems to me that if you have experience with any sampling of children where N>1, you'll see that's simply not true.

> I don't understand if you're saying that every kid is equally good at math. I'm not, there are always extreme outliers and exceptions, but I do believe that the vast majority of children can meet the incredibly low bar for mathematics education that is considered normal in North American schools. I also believe that teaching them to be afraid of math, (and having their teachers be afraid of math) is a major contrib…

> (and having their teachers be afraid of math)

This is a huge part of the issue I feel. I know way too many elementary school teachers who are afraid of math themselves and struggle to understand it. Is it any wonder the kids they teach don't? It causes big problems when they get to me for mathematics in high school.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that the people crafting these proposals care. I think they truly believe they are doing the right thing. I personally think it's just increasingly popular, mistaken moral beliefs that inform these types of proposals. Some of the underlying beliefs: 1. Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability 2. Any observable differences between humans are merely the result of social factors 3. Any observable diff…

1. This is kind of a founding principle of the country, so... 2. This follows from #1, if we rule out nature then it must be nurture. Also, you must not be a parent if you'll accept "some kids are just dumb" as an excuse 3,4. Replace "oppression" with "competition". I think it might sound better to you. But the conclusion is the same. You want to prevent winners from accumulating an advantage, eliminating all others…

1. This is kind of a founding principle of the country, so...

Is it? Saying "all mean are created equal" has a lot of interpretations, of which many valid ones do not include "all men are born of equal ability in every regard." Given that some people are born to grow up to be 5'4 and weigh 100lbs and others are born to grow up to 6'7 and 320lbs, it should be clear that not everyone is "equal" at least in terms of their physical abilities. I'm pretty sure the Founders were aware of this, making it highly unlikely that their version of "created equal" meant "exactly equal in all terms of ability."

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#226
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is calculus an important highschool goal? I feel like I may have benefited more if that time was spent on statistical literacy than calculus. I encounter stats very often in my adult life, calculus style problems are rare and I don't remember the formulas offhand, so end up just looking up what I need.

I'm certainly very happy that I learned calculus in high school. I then got a 5 on the AP calculus test and tested in to third quarter calculus in college. It was important as an engineer to understand those concepts. I don't use them too often and I forgot a lot of it, but I really enjoyed it and I think it would be unfortunate if other students did not have that opportunity. I agree stats would be great too!

As a software engineer, I wish I had learned stats instead of calculus. Some exposure would have been great, but the high school & university requirements were way off target wrt its usefulness in computer science. It was a painful process of learning, failing, and re-taking calculus, squeaking by, only to never use it again. I was a straight-A student otherwise.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#227
post #183

Irrespective of specific educational curriculums, I'm curious what does HN think about Calculus? I absolutely loved learning Calculus in high school in Math and 1st and 2nd year of University. I consistently got 97+% on my grades. And I've never had to use it in my Computer Science degree or my 20 year Software Engineer career since. Am in a bubble because I don't spend much time in the Machine Learning domain?

I've never understood the cult of calculus. I think it comes from mistaking the importance of its discovery for the importance of teaching it. It was a huge unlock for science, but is in no way a huge unlock for most people's lives. On the other hand, I feel psychology and stats are the biggest missing pieces in K12 education. We need to build greater awareness of human needs and fallibilities, and awareness of how t…

Calculus is critically essential for learning many later math fields, and many important topics. Mechanical Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Physics, Chemistry, Civil Engineering, Aerospace, etc. There is a lot of very critical fields to modern society that requires knowledge of calculus. You can't build a modern bridge without calculus.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But statistical literacy doesn’t. Sure, they may not be able to tell you what is a measurable function, but they can explain the way you should feel about a p-value.

As someone who took both a stats and newtonian physics course before taking a calc course, I wish I hadn't. It was a waste of time. They can't explain why you use the formulas they do, they have to just say "trust us, and be able to regurgitate it on the exam". For me, learning means developing an intuition, which means resolving/building new facts from other facts I have already accepted. Being handed seemingly rand…

You can develop an intuition divorced from meaningless formulas.

It goes without saying this proposed class wouldn’t be based around memorizing unmotivated formulas.

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't doubt that the people crafting these proposals care. I think they truly believe they are doing the right thing. I personally think it's just increasingly popular, mistaken moral beliefs that inform these types of proposals. Some of the underlying beliefs: 1. Blank slate - All humans are of equal ability 2. Any observable differences between humans are merely the result of social factors 3. Any observable diff…

1. This is kind of a founding principle of the country, so... 2. This follows from #1, if we rule out nature then it must be nurture. Also, you must not be a parent if you'll accept "some kids are just dumb" as an excuse 3,4. Replace "oppression" with "competition". I think it might sound better to you. But the conclusion is the same. You want to prevent winners from accumulating an advantage, eliminating all others…

1. So the country is founded on a lie or you misread that founding principle.

Those compound advantages you're talking about are good things that we want people to have because they help them do more good for society. You seem to want to handicap them in the name of fairness. Where does that thinking end when you realize that the founding assumption (1. above) is false? Disfiguring beautiful people to prevent them accumulating the compounding advantages that come with beauty? Brain damaging intelligent people?

Re: An update on the campaign to defend serious math education in California

#230
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is calculus an important highschool goal? I feel like I may have benefited more if that time was spent on statistical literacy than calculus. I encounter stats very often in my adult life, calculus style problems are rare and I don't remember the formulas offhand, so end up just looking up what I need.

Stats requires calculus; you can't even define a probability distribution without some pretty advanced notions of real analysis. Discrete math, linear algebra etc. are viable alternatives.

I took AP Stats in high school. I took a calculus based probability course at MIT. The former was extremely important to me and I learned a ton. The latter was interesting, but mostly unnecessary. A z-score lookup table is more than enough to teach the concept of a normal cdf without actually being able to derive it yourself.

As a professional data scientist I've never needed to use calculus unless you consider graphical reasoning on distribution diagrams to be calculus.

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