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Inside Putin's Circle

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Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#221

Post by jacquesm »

yucky wrote: post #219
jacquesm wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't take much imagination to think what the US would do if China began to make a "special pact" with Mexico. Shall we stick to the world as it is? Also, that's a pretty bad analogy, and no, it is not 'essentially the same'.

Perhaps some historical context would help? Going back 25 years there has been universal acknowledgement that the further expansion of NATO to Russian borders was guaranteed to trigger conflict and potentially WWIII - https://www.armscontrol.org/act/1997-06/arms-control-today/o...

No, we should blame mothers milk. Every dictator that was ever born drank it, therefore mothers milk is responsible for the invasion of Ukraine.

Again, can you please stop with the dumb propaganda pieces trying to West-Wash the Russian invasion into Ukraine? It is beyond boring. If it is your goal to drive people away from HN by rehashing the same inane arguments over and over again that is of course your freedom but since you, as a new entrant are not gaining anything and we lose something it would seem that this is a non-zero sum game where in the end we're looking at a net loss.

The only party responsible for the invasion of Ukraine is one V. Putin and by extension the Russian state. Attempts to drag the past in by the ears or otherwise are counterproductive. If anything NATO should have accepted Ukraine because we already know the result of not accepting them. See also several treaties that Russia just decided to wipe its arse with.

Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#222

Post by yucky »

jacquesm wrote: post #221
yucky wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps some historical context would help? Going back 25 years there has been universal acknowledgement that the further expansion of NATO to Russian borders was guaranteed to trigger conflict and potentially WWIII - https://www.armscontrol.org/act/1997-06/arms-control-today/o...

No, we should blame mothers milk. Every dictator that was ever born drank it, therefore mothers milk is responsible for the invasion of Ukraine. Again, can you please stop with the dumb propaganda pieces trying to West-Wash the Russian invasion into Ukraine? It is beyond boring. If it is your goal to drive people away from HN by rehashing the same inane arguments over and over again that is of course your freedom but…

If you don't think the expansion of NATO, the US-backed Ukrainian coup/revolution/othercutename[1] or the US essentially handpicking the post-coup leadership in Ukraine[2] have anything at all to do with why Russia has decided to invade Ukraine, what do you think is the reason?

[1] https://apnews.com/article/970e8e54b3df46eab593e9e11beb056d

[2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-a...

Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#223

Post by JumpCrisscross »

singularity2001 wrote: post #212
the_lonely_road wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The world changed in a very significant way over the last 70 years. Even more so over the last 20 years. It may very well end up that the Information Age has tipped the scales and our large meandering decentralized democracies are no longer the superior model they were back when it took 4 weeks to get a letter from New York City to Washington DC. Now it’s a synchronous call with satellite footage of every inch of the…

On the other hand, the Information Age might for the first time in history enable true democracy, where every political decision can instantaneously be made by the voting populous. (not that farce of a democracy where a highspeed jet is allegedly steered by the binary input of "left" or "right" every four years)

> the Information Age might for the first time in history enable true democracy

We’ve had true democracy. It doesn’t work. It careens into majoritarianism while hyperpartisanship tears it apart. The American system balances democracy against oligarchic and monarchic stabilisers. One could argue that our present situation results from forgetting the need for that balance.

Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#224

Post by DamnYuppie »

trhway wrote: post #54
DamnYuppie wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Business, despite all its press and media to the contrary, isn't war. People are not dying and suffering and you don't really face any repercussions from your actions. War is a totally different thing so asking people to "move fast and break things" doesn't really make sense in that context especially when there are actual physical repercussions. Also why should the people on this site really care? Honestly I get it…

> I don't recall Ukraine sending f*ck all for them. so, you're holding against Ukraine that they were peaceful and didn't participated in other countries destructions all this time?

No I am saying they aren't our ally and have never been one nor acted like one. They want to use us for their own benefit, which yes every country does, but I am just over caring about everyone else at this point.

Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#225

Post by DamnYuppie »

beebmam wrote: post #48
DamnYuppie wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Business, despite all its press and media to the contrary, isn't war. People are not dying and suffering and you don't really face any repercussions from your actions. War is a totally different thing so asking people to "move fast and break things" doesn't really make sense in that context especially when there are actual physical repercussions. Also why should the people on this site really care? Honestly I get it…

>Also why should the people on this site really care? Would you care if gangsters showed up at your house and told you that everything you owned now belongs to his gang? Would you care if that happened to your neighbor? If you think this will never happen to you, think again. This world is a brutal place filled with people that would take from you every single thing you hold dear without a blink of an eye.

You point loses out when you realize that Ukraine isn't my neighbor so no I don't really care.

Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#226

Post by trhway »

DamnYuppie wrote: post #224
trhway wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't recall Ukraine sending f*ck all for them. so, you're holding against Ukraine that they were peaceful and didn't participated in other countries destructions all this time?

No I am saying they aren't our ally and have never been one nor acted like one. They want to use us for their own benefit, which yes every country does, but I am just over caring about everyone else at this point.

>They want to use us for their own benefit

they are asking for help in their survival while being butchered for no reason.

>I am just over caring about everyone else at this point.

i wonder how much have you contributed to humanity to consider your self "over".

Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#227

Post by polishdude20 »

jagrsw wrote: post #210
polishdude20 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Polish, Sila is strength as well.

Technically (physically) it's force (as in SI's F).

Oh that makes sense! I'm thinking back to how people say "On jest silny" as in "He is strong" I wouldn't say "He is force"

Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#228

Post by throw0101a »

the_lonely_road wrote: post #94
hcarvalhoalves wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of a centralised planned state fell with the USSR, and it was widely argued that it fell _because_ of central planning. China is becoming a counter-example for the people who have always been fond of the idea of having a state ruled by an "elite", with the perception that democracy is fragile and doesn't work for long-term (more than a 4/5 years mandate) planning.

The world changed in a very significant way over the last 70 years. Even more so over the last 20 years. It may very well end up that the Information Age has tipped the scales and our large meandering decentralized democracies are no longer the superior model they were back when it took 4 weeks to get a letter from New York City to Washington DC. Now it’s a synchronous call with satellite footage of every inch of the…

> It may very well end up that the Information Age has tipped the scales and our large meandering decentralized democracies are no longer the superior model they were back when it took 4 weeks to get a letter from New York City to Washington DC.

There are more and less (de)centralized democracies. The US (and others) are formed from federated regional governments:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalism

But there are unitary states (France, Spain) as well:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_state

As for democracies: one problem with non-democracies is negative feedback can be difficult. If things are headed in a bad direction, it can be hard to get that message through to those in charge if they lean autocratic and become isolated from reality. Folks are afraid to bear bad news because messenger get shot (proverbially or literally).

Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#229

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

yucky wrote: post #222
jacquesm wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we should blame mothers milk. Every dictator that was ever born drank it, therefore mothers milk is responsible for the invasion of Ukraine. Again, can you please stop with the dumb propaganda pieces trying to West-Wash the Russian invasion into Ukraine? It is beyond boring. If it is your goal to drive people away from HN by rehashing the same inane arguments over and over again that is of course your freedom but…

If you don't think the expansion of NATO, the US-backed Ukrainian coup/revolution/othercutename[1] or the US essentially handpicking the post-coup leadership in Ukraine[2] have anything at all to do with why Russia has decided to invade Ukraine, what do you think is the reason ? [1] https://apnews.com/article/970e8e54b3df46eab593e9e11beb056d [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape/leaked-a...

> US-backed Ukrainian coup

You have been called out on your "CIA Coup" propaganda before, regarding this event: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity

It's boring.

Re: Inside Putin's Circle

#230

Post by dillondoyle »

yucky wrote: post #217
dillondoyle wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would the better approach be? Sorry Ukraine, the Maidan was cute but no, you can not join 'the west'

Well it's at least telling that we're not allowed to refer to that as a coup, isn't it? I mean, what else would we call a revolution where a democratically elected government is removed from power and replaced with one backed by an adversary, which then immediately rewrites the Constitution to put that country in an adversarial foreign policy position to their powerful neighbor? Is that not a coup? Is that not a reci…

No.

1: Democratically elected stretches reality towards the end. The end was not a free and fair democracy nor free and fair elections.

Yanukovych was an autocrat and stooge. copying many of the same tactics as his protector Putin to stay in power beyond public support: suppressing opposition, faking votes with international orgs deemed un true/not valid election, using his private military to intimidate and suppress.

The people of Ukraine WANT to join the EU and be a part of European trade. Perhaps not all but a vast majority.

That's the crux of Maidan.

Yanukovych said he would sign the economic agreement which had broad support across the country. But did a 180 and ran to Putin (literally and figuratively, he physically fled). If any country was holding a gun it was Russia.

2: It was not a coup. This was not a military take over, decapitation by a 3rd party nation, or middle of the night execution.

He was removed through an act of parliament after IMENSE popular opposition via democratic sentiment/uprising among the people.

Even if that act itself wasn't laid out exactly in their constitution, what came next were legitimate free and fair elections which is indisputable.

People and countries should be free to chart their own future.

To remove themselves from the foot of authoritarianism and to rewrite and reimagine their government towards Democracy, European trade, & freedom.

A bully autocrat & former controlling country shouldn't be allowed to shut down the will and future of tens of millions just because they have a larger army and threaten nuclear war.

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