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Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

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Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#221

Post by jazzyjackson »

warner_of_doom wrote: post #38

Seeing this play out in the media reminds me of the Iraq War hysteria in 2003. Completely one-sided coverage, classic war-time propaganda (ghost of kiev), banning Russian arts and paralympians, etc. I've lost all faith in the media. Period. You may think that there is an absolute answer to this situation, but there isn't. I recommend that you study commentators and scholars such as: John Mearsheimer, Zbigniew Brezins…

> We are literally sacrificing their country and encouraging suicide. This. is. just. wrong!

what on earth? Who is we? Policy that pisses Russia off I can take blame for, but Americans sacrificing Ukrainians? I really just cannot parse how you lay guilt at our feet for Ukrainians’ propensity for defending their sovereignty from invaders.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#222

Post by jazzyjackson »

throwaways85989 wrote: post #161
warner_of_doom wrote: post #38

Seeing this play out in the media reminds me of the Iraq War hysteria in 2003. Completely one-sided coverage, classic war-time propaganda (ghost of kiev), banning Russian arts and paralympians, etc. I've lost all faith in the media. Period. You may think that there is an absolute answer to this situation, but there isn't. I recommend that you study commentators and scholars such as: John Mearsheimer, Zbigniew Brezins…

I despise this western-centric view- were only the people in the west are real people, that can make decisions for themselves, and the rest is just pawns for playing a funny great board game. The idea that even a new-born nation, could walk out of the board game and do its own thing is so outrageous to the players, it is not even considered. Well, ukraine just tried that. Its a sovereign nation, and it wanted nothing…

Thanks for this poetic comment

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#223

Post by foogazi »

Grustaf wrote: post #198
foogazi wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The West is clearly egging the Ukrainians on Is that why they keep fighting? OTOH The east is clearly bombing Ukraine

They're fighting because they are being attacked, and because Slavs are courageous and stubborn. But the West are not telling them to give up, to save civilian lives. Instead they encourage them to keep fighting, delaying the inevitable. I don't know by how many days that will prolong the war, but it's reckless.

Does the West have anything to do with Slav courage?

Do you think Ukrainians are incapable of deciding for themselves?

Putin seems to think so

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#224

Post by jazzyjackson »

warner_of_doom wrote: post #167
BitwiseFool wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also surprised at just how many of my friends have turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types who think that anyone who believes that even a modicum of this is perhaps America's fault is committing treason. For what it's worth, what Russia is doing is wrong. But I do absolutely understand Mearsheimer's perspective that this is basically a Cuban Missile Crisis 2.0…

> turned from dovish "can't we all just get along" types into rabid "Russia Delenda Est" types Manufactured consent.

I agree with Chomsky on a lot of things, don’t think I need to watch CNN or read the New York Times to take Ukraine’s side on this one.

The international condemnation and lock step sanctions, is that the media’s doing? Or is it the consequence of Russia being the aggressor? I agree with my sibling, opinions tend to stiffen up when war breaks out, with or without the radio.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#225

Post by bllguo »

jazzyjackson wrote: post #221
warner_of_doom wrote: post #38

Seeing this play out in the media reminds me of the Iraq War hysteria in 2003. Completely one-sided coverage, classic war-time propaganda (ghost of kiev), banning Russian arts and paralympians, etc. I've lost all faith in the media. Period. You may think that there is an absolute answer to this situation, but there isn't. I recommend that you study commentators and scholars such as: John Mearsheimer, Zbigniew Brezins…

> We are literally sacrificing their country and encouraging suicide. This. is. just. wrong! what on earth? Who is we? Policy that pisses Russia off I can take blame for, but Americans sacrificing Ukrainians? I really just cannot parse how you lay guilt at our feet for Ukrainians’ propensity for defending their sovereignty from invaders.

do you not understand how pissing Russia off leads to sacrificing Ukrainian lives, or are you choosing not to?

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#226

Post by tynpeddler »

I get that Mearsheimer is supposed to be some kind of astute expert on this topic, but he is really embarrassing himself here. His whole argument basically rests on 3 points:

1. Russia is a great power. As such, it is effectively an automaton that must react in specific ways to external stimuli. There's no reasoning, and no morality, only stimuli and response. Thus the concept of blame and responsibility are meaningless when applied to Russia.

2. Europe and the west are not great powers. Instead they are thinking, feeling actors with a moral obligation to tiptoe around and appease great powers like Russia. Because the west are the only thinking feeling people, they're the only ones that can be responsible for anything.

3. Ukrainians are neither a great power or real people. They just need to sit there and accept whatever other actors want to do to them. Any attempt to make decisions for themselves means they deserve any bad thing that happens.

Mearsheimer's statements read like a setup to a punchline (A great power, a real human, and a useless blob walk into a bar). I appreciate that after the interviewer got over his initial shock, he started making fun of Mearsheimer with questions like "But his bombs are touching it [western Ukraine], right?" Also, "I thought you said that he was not interested in taking Kyiv" is a nice touch.

Most ridiculous of all is that Mearsheimer's defines giving improving the economy, reducing corruption, increasing political liberty, and generally improving peoples lives as "western aggression".

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#227

Post by jazzyjackson »

bllguo wrote: post #225
jazzyjackson wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We are literally sacrificing their country and encouraging suicide. This. is. just. wrong! what on earth? Who is we? Policy that pisses Russia off I can take blame for, but Americans sacrificing Ukrainians? I really just cannot parse how you lay guilt at our feet for Ukrainians’ propensity for defending their sovereignty from invaders.

do you not understand how pissing Russia off leads to sacrificing Ukrainian lives, or are you choosing not to?

It can be America’s fault for antagonizing Russia, while it is Russia’s fault for shelling college dorms. If this is cognitive dissonance so be it.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#228

Post by 331c8c71 »

ManuelKiessling wrote: post #178
331c8c71 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people of Ukraine have ... overthrown a president ... It's more accurate to say that some ukranian people have ousted the president and let US decide whom to put in place The country was split nearly 50/50 between pro-us and pro-russian. Surely enough the second half was cancelled after the coup (change in language laws for instance).

If this is true, and 50% of the Ukrainian people see this operation as a liberation – why, then, are people fleeing west, not east?

Of course russia is the aggressor now, and people are generally fleeing west.

My estimate for maidan times is based on preceding elections where "pro-russian" yanukovich won by a small margin.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#229

Post by s1artibartfast »

david38 wrote: post #191
pintxo wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But to say that what Russia is doing is somehow US's fault, that really does not make any sense. My take on it is: if you willingly push a bear in a tight corner, you have it coming when he starts biting and fighting. Now, this is no valid excuse for me when it comes to nation states and their actions, but nations are just run by humans, aren't they?

Invading Russia would be pushing the bear into a tight corner. This is setting up camp in another ecosystem where the bear isn’t supposed to be at all, has no claim.

How close would you let your enemy put a knife to your throat before stopping them?

The best way to avoid a knife fight is for two people to stay far apart. If you keep getting closer to someone with a knife, you shouldn't be surprised when you get stabbed.

Re: Why John Mearsheimer Blames the U.S. for the Crisis in Ukraine

#230

Post by jazzyjackson »

Grustaf wrote: post #198
foogazi wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The West is clearly egging the Ukrainians on Is that why they keep fighting? OTOH The east is clearly bombing Ukraine

They're fighting because they are being attacked, and because Slavs are courageous and stubborn. But the West are not telling them to give up, to save civilian lives. Instead they encourage them to keep fighting, delaying the inevitable. I don't know by how many days that will prolong the war, but it's reckless.

Imagine Biden telling Ukraine to lay down arms and capitulate to the Russian occupation, and we thought Trump acted like the Manchurian candidate !

I really can’t see into your mind, how is Putin not the reckless one here? He’s going on a military adventure that has kept the Russian stock market closed for a week.

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