World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate • Hacker News Board

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#221

Post by FiberBundle » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 6:49 AM UTC

deutschewelle wrote: post #210

Tomis02 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you actually believe that you would be able to enjoy the same level of human relationships with an octopus? How about a cow? Or a coackroach? My enjoyment levels have nothing to do with the discussion. You're essentially using the same "we're superior to X" argument that has been regularly used for the entirety of human history to try justify what is morally unjustifiable. > I did not engage with your comment fu…

> My enjoyment levels have nothing to do with the discussion. When plants are usually cut, it emits a certain chemical as a warning stressor to communicate to other plants, who on a very slow time frame are just as capable of perceiving stressors and able to adjust their exposure to nutrients and sunlight in a matter very similar to animals. Yet because it is difficult to attach anthropomorphic qualities to it you ar…

> When plants are usually cut, it emits a certain chemical as a warning stressor to communicate to other plants, who on a very slow time frame are just as capable of perceiving stressors and able to adjust their exposure to nutrients and sunlight in a matter very similar to animals.

> Yet because it is difficult to attach anthropomorphic qualities to it you are free to farm, destroy and eat, whom by all definition just as sentient as the mammals you describe.

The existence of an adaptive mechanism in an organism doesn't mean that any organisms that have such mechanisms are sentient to similar degrees. You're actually completely contradicting yourself here by first arguing that other animals are "less" sentient than humans (presumably because of the neurological complexity of our brains compared to those of other species) and then continue by claiming that plants are similarly sentient to mammals.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#222

Post by ornornor » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 6:52 AM UTC

AngryData wrote: post #116

To me the most important questions are, does living a farm style life cause them undue distress and harm, and will they realize they are on a farm instead of just some weird octopus community. For example, the cows I own I can keep on my land and they are perfectly content to munch grass around the different pastures throughout the year as they are rotated, and have free clean shelter in the barn and free hay in the…

> does living a farm style life cause them undue distress and harm, and will they realize they are on a farm instead of just some weird octopus community.

Why even take the chance then, other than to show greed and a lack of empathy?

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#223

Post by tshaddox » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:00 AM UTC

nefitty wrote: post #195

glenngillen wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question and not an attempt to bait you, but curious why the latter is a ridiculous argument? I’ve not heard that argument, but I have seen the occasional piece of research pop up to suggest there’s more complicated communication or social structures in plants. Particularly fungi. I’ve no idea how true any of it is and what why more may learn about that in the coming decades. So while I personally don’t have…

I'm definitely open to discussing the possibility when it's with someone arguing in good faith. It seems like that's where you're coming from, so thank you. I won't bury the lede further. Plants can't experience pain, at least insofar as we conceive of it, because they don't have nociceptors that signal pain. Therefore, if they do have any sort of phenomenological experience, whether it would be recognizable to us or…

If you could anesthetize animals so that they could never feel pain would that solve any moral problems with farming and eating animals?

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#224

Post by deutschewelle » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:00 AM UTC

Buttons840 wrote: post #139

vmception wrote: post #33

It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings, I don't understand why grown adults are just reaching a cognitive maturity to notice that and making that a line in the sand on whether they will farm/consume a being based on that. These seem to be two separate things to me? Can someone shed light on both: a) why these are related concepts b) your journey to cognitiv…

> It was always possible for me to perceive sentience, feelings and emotions from a variety of beings My mom has always had this ability. We had some horses in a pasture behind our house, and one day we noticed most of the horses had been removed and only one remained. My mom could instantly tell that the one remaining horse, named Pete, was sad to be alone. "Pete is so sad, she's all alone" my mom observed while we…

this reminds me of a small fish that used to visit me during my dives, it would take me to things he found, bottles, coins, shells.

was not the first time it happened because the same fish with the same markings (im quite sure of it) would visit me.

so im thinking what is going on here? how is it that a fish is able to recognize me in my gear and comes to me in the same vicinity?

it appears to be communicating too by leading me to stuff he finds. it lets me even pet it which it seems to enjoy.

again i dont know what its thinking but from these actions one might strongly conclude that there is some sort of sentient mutual awareness and that its able to engage in both recognition, my presence and subtle communication (by showing me treasures he find)

I guess my point is perceiving feelings is not limited between two humans only (obviously super tough with text alone, it is something else.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#225

Post by ornornor » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:01 AM UTC

ComputerGuru wrote: post #201

WaxProlix wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, the answer was yes. I stopped eating pigs first, and then cows and other mammals, and then octopi (octopodes?). I've been cutting back further on chicken and fish, too, though I eat a lot of eggs and some dairy still. I don't know that it's morally right or something, but it doesn't cost much and the potential upside seems high enough to do it.

> though I eat a lot of eggs and some dairy still. See, I feel like this just erodes from your argument. There’s not necessarily any trauma at all to the chickens or the cows involved in the production of eggs or milk. Trying to group that with the consumption of meat feels just very irrational.

Yes there is.

Egg farms grind male chicks alive. They burn off the tip of the hens beak without anesthesia (which we know is high in nerves) so they don’t fight each other in captivity; which they don’t do nearly as much in nature because surprise surprise they’re not as stressed. Hens laying eggs every single day of their lives (because they’re taken away daily) live much much shorter lives and develop physiological issues more often. When they’re finally exhausted after a few short years and stop producing as much, they’re turned into chicken nuggets or broth cubes.

Cows producing milk are constantly inseminated. Maybe they don’t care or maybe it’s a form of rape. Nevertheless, their calves are taken away from them shortly after they’re born (so they don’t eat the milk instead of the factory) and slaughtered. Cows call for their missing baby for several days. Dairy cows are also living much much shorter lives (imagine how long a human that does nothing but give birth would live) and are turned into hamburgers afterwards.

Not to mention cheese which need casein to be made and that can’t be obtained without killing cows as it’s the acid in their stomach, basically.

So, yes, eating milk or eggs doesn’t directly require the animal to die. But it’s so close and it enables such a cruel, abhorrent, and revolting meat industry that it’s impossible in my opinion to ethically justify eating eggs and milk (let alone meat or fish)

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#226

Post by cjonas » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:03 AM UTC

tommoor wrote: post #216

cjonas wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

without farming they cease to exist at all...

One way to think about it – Imagine a superior alien civilization farming humans and killing them for food at 12-24 months. Does that feel acceptable?

a more equal comparison would be an adolescence to mature human... So 12-18 years? Food, shelter & protection provided? Blissfully unaware of my predetermined fate?

And if they don't eat me, I never exist in the first place?

I'd opt to be eaten.

Just seems like the aliens would be better off eating cows...

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#227

Post by bane » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:03 AM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #202

bane wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meet more people? The gross statistics back it up. The average American eats about as much seafood as the average Russian, which is surprising considering one has ample fisheries and coastal areas and the other doesn't. Both countries are about mid-line per capita globally at something like 20-30 lbs (9-13 kg) per person per year (vs 60-80 pounds (27-36 kg) for countries like Korea, Japan, etc.) More detail, if you l…

> The thing is, modern logistics make it possible to eat fresh Sushi in the middle of Kansas. Being away from the coasts isn't really an excuse as the availability is or can be approximately the same. Flash freezing is relatively new technology (I assume that’s what you mean by “fresh”). It is not surprising midwesterners go all out on sushi (the real kind, not Californian roles) just because the logistics are easier…

Nah, by fresh I mean caught, loaded from a boat onto a truck with ice and driven to its destination.

The miracle of the National Highway System makes Boston to San Diego a 50 hour possibility. Surely the people of Springfield Missouri would be fine with iced, fresh, 20 hour old fish caught off the coast of Connecticut! You can get an entire boat of fish from the Gulf Coast to Kansas City same day by road.

Delaware to Louisville is what 8 hours? But why bother, fresh mussels from Lake Erie don't even have to leave the state, can by caught in the morning after breakfast and eaten for lunch a couple hours later.

The Highway System is almost a century old. That's a few generations time to change preferences.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#228

Post by givemeethekeys » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:05 AM UTC

I watched an Anthony Bourdaine episode where he visited Japan and saw the live octopus that would later be slaughtered for his dinner. He was very excited by it.

I looked at the same octopus and not once did the thought, "food" enter my mind. It's the same when I look at cows and chicken.. I don't think of them as food when I see them roaming about. On the other hand, when I see a fish, I do sometimes think, "food!".

I think this would make for a good test when deciding whether or not you should eat a particular animal. When you look at it alive and roaming about, do you think "oh, thats food!". If not, then maybe you shouldn't eat it.

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#229

Post by ralusek » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:06 AM UTC

atdrummond wrote: post #218

I used to do research at the Shedd Aquarium. After watching a particularly clever octopus defeat every attempt to prevent him leaving his enclosure at night, I am absolutely confident that, just like certain aquatic mammals such as Orca whales, that we only devalue their intelligence because they were unfortunate enough to not be in a situation where they could develop significant tool use and the cultural artifacts…

Gonna go out on a limb (hah) and guess that his winning strategy 9/10 times was "squeeze through thing you didn't think he could squeeze through."

Re: World’s first octopus farm stirs ethical debate

#230

Post by atdrummond » Fri, Feb 25, 2022, 7:14 AM UTC

ralusek wrote: post #229

atdrummond wrote: post #218

I used to do research at the Shedd Aquarium. After watching a particularly clever octopus defeat every attempt to prevent him leaving his enclosure at night, I am absolutely confident that, just like certain aquatic mammals such as Orca whales, that we only devalue their intelligence because they were unfortunate enough to not be in a situation where they could develop significant tool use and the cultural artifacts…

Gonna go out on a limb (hah) and guess that his winning strategy 9/10 times was "squeeze through thing you didn't think he could squeeze through."

That's part of it but he had an ability to break locks and dismantle constructs with ease. I realized after a while he paid immense attention to how we installed every new addition to his habitat and then would seemingly aim to deconstruct our creations using the knowledge he picked up from our installation work. I truly am in awe of these creatures, especially after one of the long time Shedd workers told me that this particular octopus was just one of a group of very smart cephalopods they've had and that one of his relatives was even more intelligent!