Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber? • Hacker News Board

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#221

Post by sjg007 » Sun, Feb 13, 2022, 6:57 PM UTC

JKCalhoun wrote: post #200

TheCoelacanth wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes, owning things is definitely the best job, regardless of what industry you're in. It's not the typical path for any job, though.

I know, but I think for most people in this thread, there is an upward path for that. I often wonder why the other painters working for him don't go off and start their own painting companies. Perhaps a few will. But I suspect many of them would not enjoy or be comfortable with spread sheets, business taxes, work insurance and some of the other things that go along with owning the company. I suspect my neighbor, like…

Same thing for software engineers and companies.

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#222

Post by TheCoelacanth » Sun, Feb 13, 2022, 6:57 PM UTC

firstplacelast wrote: post #174

ryandvm wrote: post #62

Sure, you hate your boring, safe, lucrative job in software development until you become a plumber and find yourself on your hands and knees beside a disassembled toilet for the 87th time. Splattered in fetid wastewater, pulling stuck condoms out of the floor while the idiot renter stands above you dragging on his Juul, and you realize, maybe I didn't have it so bad after all. The "grass is always greener" is probabl…

So I get it, but also people are way overhyping software development in this thread (which is expected on a tech website). The only thing going for it is an insane salary and lots of us don’t have those. I’ve worked in biotech/healthcare and have never had anything close to a FAANG salary even in a HCOL area. I burned out and am just now taking a month off to just exist. I have had the same thoughts about going blue-…

Software development has a lot more going for it than just high salaries. You have a enormous amount of bargaining power and ability to be picky about working conditions.

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#223

Post by civilized » Sun, Feb 13, 2022, 6:57 PM UTC

artemonster wrote: post #214

civilized wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered what you personally believe is right? Why go around being an enforcer for social rules you don't even know if you believe in?

I personally believe in statistics and I believe you cannot use them to make derogatory generalizations. I mean racists REALLY love to pull out crime statistics out of their pockets in justification of their views. And, frankly, its not about my beliefs right now and enforcing of societal rules, its about you making derogatory generalizations and thinking that its okay, because "statistics" and because you've said so…

Well, I don't believe what you believe. I think you have an overly general moral rule that you think is necessary for consistency, but it's not really, and it's just your personal belief.

Your belief implies it is improper to use statistics to describe morally salient human behavior in any way, unless the conclusion is that there is no variation. I think that's silly and intellectually impoverishing. Groups have different average behavior and I don't see the point in blinding myself to that.

We all know that averages don't determine an individual, and we all know that some generalizations should be avoided, but that doesn't imply some broad fatwa, completely irrespective of context, against noting broad variations in group behavior.

The prosecutor attitude is very entertaining though. Feel free to keep doing that.

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#224

Post by syndacks » Sun, Feb 13, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

I see this not so much as, “let me quit my swe job to become a plumber” but more so a fundamental alienation from labor (on behalf of OP). I think we can all agree that using intelligence to create abstract flows in code is engaging and rewarding. It’s the everything else that makes us feel alienated: the politics/pressure of the company, the “mba types”, the mission of the company itself to solve a problem that isn’t even all that real or impactful ie optimizing video advertising — and the perverse ways management tries to sell it as world changing work — m that makes us look to the other side and wonder if say using our hands to make physical structures might being a closer relationship to our work. A rejection of cognitive dissonance or something.

Marx touches on this concept of alienation of labor [0]. Not pushing Marxism at all here, just using one of his lesser known theories to tease out this topic.

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#225

Post by bmitc » Sun, Feb 13, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

nkozyra wrote: post #166

jedberg wrote: post #64

This last summer/fall really put things in perspective for me. We did a major outdoor renovation at our house, which involved landscapers, plumbers, electricians, and carpenters. Every day these guys would show up at 8am and long sleeves and jeans and hard hats, work super hard, pee in a port-a-potty, and be exhausted by the end of the day. They worked out in the 100 degree heat as well as the rain as the job got nea…

There's something so insidiously, backhandedly condescending about tech workers pining for the simplicity of an honest day's job that drives me nuts. Yes, there are almost always jobs with less strenuous requirements on time, fewer requirements and late nights. But the average tech worker has a pretty good gig. And if they don't they can go down the street in 2022 and get one. Trades scratch a similar itch to develop…

> Trades scratch a similar itch to development in some ways - you're working with a set of tools

I'd say the major difference is that in the trades, the tools actually work.

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#226

Post by rascul » Sun, Feb 13, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #126

jedberg wrote: post #64

This last summer/fall really put things in perspective for me. We did a major outdoor renovation at our house, which involved landscapers, plumbers, electricians, and carpenters. Every day these guys would show up at 8am and long sleeves and jeans and hard hats, work super hard, pee in a port-a-potty, and be exhausted by the end of the day. They worked out in the 100 degree heat as well as the rain as the job got nea…

Yeah, I genuinely do not understand what it is that drives people like the reddit OP to think that tradespeople somehow have it better than software folks. It's like they have never actually paid attention to how absolutely grueling plumbing/roofing/fencing/etc. is. "Constant need to stay up to date" is actually one of the things I really like about this field, because it's one of the things that prevents the work fr…

> Yeah, I genuinely do not understand what it is that drives people like the reddit OP to think that tradespeople somehow have it better than software folks. It's like they have never actually paid attention to how absolutely grueling plumbing/roofing/fencing/etc. is.

I have done a decent bit of network and systems administration in the past. I don't like it. It's hard on me sitting at a computer all day. Sometimes I got to go somewhere else and play with some equipment for a bit, but it was mostly a sit at a desk and stare at a screen kind of job. I really need the physical activity. Nowadays I repair rental houses for a number of property owners around here and I'll never go back, even if does pay a little less. I don't really find the work any more or less enjoyable overall, but I work less hours which means I have more time of my own, I sleep so much better at night, and my mental health has improved significantly. Also I get to work by myself which is real nice.

Edit: Many trade jobs are not like mine. I work my own hours, at my own pace, doing mostly light work. Every now and then I might get a helper. I was a roofer when I was much younger, and that's not something my body could handle anymore.

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#227

Post by honkycat » Sun, Feb 13, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

not at all.

I respect trade work, but I also don't idealize it.

It sucks in a lot of ways that are very similar to how software engineering sucks.

As a SWE I get respect from my peers and family for having a "smart job", make 4x what most plumbers make, work from my home office, and do not have a boss breathing down my neck. I do not destroy my body by constantly kneeling over and getting into awkward positions.

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#228

Post by mcbishop » Sun, Feb 13, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

Denzel wrote: post #170

mcbishop wrote: post #125

After 15 years doing software development, I started training to be an electrician a month ago (in the Bay Area). The two people I work under are chill / patient. Sometimes when dragging myself and wire though tight rat-shit crawl spaces... I yearn for my nice little home office. But, overall, I enjoy the work. It feels good to do work in the physical world. A lot of electricians are nearing retirement. Meanwhile, el…

Are you still doing software while training to become an electrician? I'd like to become a licensed electrician. After completing a few successful projects around the house, and studying the 2020 NEC inside out, I looked into becoming licensed. The required 4 year apprenticeship, before I'm able to take the exam, turned me off. How would I ever be able to satisfy that requirement while keeping my day job. It's like a…

I do field work 3-4 days a week. In the other 1-2, I set aside time to do software. Relying on electrical work for income, the pressure is off to monetize the software work. ...This has made it more fun.

Yeah, people learn / master at different rates so it's too bad they require so many hours to qualify for a license. Once you're a journeyperson and have your chops, you could arrange a profit share (or something) under a licensed electrician. ...Where you're pretty much "owning" the project, but they're available to answer questions and review you work. And take liability.

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#229

Post by artemonster » Sun, Feb 13, 2022, 7:00 PM UTC

brnaftr361 wrote: post #169

artemonster wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how in our progressive society it is absolutely frowned upon to invoke any association between observable societal statistics and, say, race/gender, but its okay to bash BMW/audi drivers. So, user civilized, why is it okay for you to generalize? And why exactly you were sorry? (I am aware that this is a tangent discussion to the original post, but it may be an interesting one)

I do think that's a pretty interesting point. It's a weird move to sweep under the rug. I guess you could argue that having a BMW is a choice, and it has associated stereotypes, which we can infer is sort of like joining a club. race/gender are probabilistic and unalterable, one doesn't necessarily elect to inherit the stereotypes associated with race/gender. You're essentially being delegated expectations that may o…

I am unsure whether the (im)mutability of a qualifier plays a role. For example, religion is a choice, but making generalized derogatory statements about certain religious groups is not okay either. You can try it with the pattern of "civilized" user: """Everywhere you go, there will be _men hitting their wivers_. Disproportionately they will be ..." and say sorry afterwards. You will be making a statistically correct statement, but you will be flagged and IRL punched in the face for saying that. But somehow saying that about BMW drivers is still allright?

Re: Anyone else feel the constant urge to leave the field and become a plumber?

#230

Post by simooooo » Sun, Feb 13, 2022, 7:00 PM UTC

nkozyra wrote: post #166

jedberg wrote: post #64

This last summer/fall really put things in perspective for me. We did a major outdoor renovation at our house, which involved landscapers, plumbers, electricians, and carpenters. Every day these guys would show up at 8am and long sleeves and jeans and hard hats, work super hard, pee in a port-a-potty, and be exhausted by the end of the day. They worked out in the 100 degree heat as well as the rain as the job got nea…

There's something so insidiously, backhandedly condescending about tech workers pining for the simplicity of an honest day's job that drives me nuts. Yes, there are almost always jobs with less strenuous requirements on time, fewer requirements and late nights. But the average tech worker has a pretty good gig. And if they don't they can go down the street in 2022 and get one. Trades scratch a similar itch to develop…

I feel like I’d sometimes like to try a job like a carpenter or builder, but simply to try building something in real life, rather than our often intangible products.