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War Is a Racket (1933)

man.fas.org

221–230 of 235 posts

Re: War Is a Racket (1933)

#221
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This guy is amazing and it really speaks of the troubles of war. >The flag follows the dollar, the soldiers follow the flag. I find this "business plot"[0] to be fascinating as well. >Retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler asserted that wealthy businessmen were plotting to create a fascist veterans' organization with Butler as its leader and use it in a coup d'état to overthrow Roosevelt. >Early in the com…

Capitalists tend to dislike Democracy. In a Democracy, groups of people tax the Capitalists to pay for all sorts of frivolities like Health Care, Elder Care, poor folk care, and crazy useless stuff like Libraries, parks (aka future mining locations), policing, and community-sponsored housing. It's so much easier for the Capitalists if there is a fascist in charge, because then such nonsense as just mentioned is tampe…

Capitalists love policing. If the government doesn't spend money on police, they simply create their own police.

Policing is a racket in exactly the same way war is. It protects business interests under the guise of "justice".

Re: War Is a Racket (1933)

#222

I started paying attention to this when I lived close to DC around 2002. Bush was cutting the top tax brackets while ramping up for the Iraq invasion, the defense contractors made record profits (I remember one CEO making around 30 million) and the DC metro was plastered with ads touting the patriotism of the defense contractors. I thought "these guys are making record money, are getting their taxes reduced, try to l…

“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people. A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice; a war…

You must agree that, by the standards of this paragraph, most wars waged by people should first be against their own current leaders.

Re: War Is a Racket (1933)

#224
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the big, big problem! Let me give you a few well-known countries and you can think about whether there are any parallels between them and Afghanistan. 1 England: the English Civil War (very simplified description). The terrorists as we would call them nowadays [the Parliamentarians] won and King Charles I was executed. The people that now rule the UK have inherited the system of government originally set up by…

Take a look at your two answers: 1) > Pretty simple really! 2) > That's the big problem! At all but the most superficial level you'll find armed conflict motivations over all of human civilizations isn't "pretty simple really" and you'll find there are a lot of "that's the big problem's". Trying to reduce a topic as big as armed conflict in human history to a single idea of "just" or "unjust" isn't a particularly ins…

"1) > Pretty simple really!

...you'll find armed conflict motivations over all of human civilizations isn't "pretty simple really"

I have said in posts to this HN story and also in posts to other HN stories about similar matters that these issues are complex. Translation: I do NOT believe these issues are "pretty simple really". I have never said that either here or elsewhere.

From what I said, it ought to have been crystal clear that my comment about armed conflict were my own views and that I had no doubt about them in my own mind. I did not say that the view as presented were some universal understanding or edict. Had it been so then I've have spelt that out with references.

"2) > That's the big problem!"

The first issue is that I did not use the words just or unjust in the above post and by saying that I can only assume that you either didn't fully read what I had written and or that you hadn't read the full thread up to this point.

Nor did I reduce the idea to a single argument (I cannot conceive how you read that into what I had written). The point I was making was (and is) abundantly clear, which is that whether a political cause or action has 'legitimacy' or not is dependent on who actually holds that view—and not that that view is fixed in the firmament as if by some divine right. Like Lorentz transformations in Relativity, one's worldview depends on when and where one is standing (i.e.: one's specific circumstance).

I then went on to give you the reader a number of important—in fact, very significant—examples from history where key protagonists had a very different worldview to their [then] ruling establishments and because they were all successful winners in conflicts with their respective establishments, then their worldview ultimately prevailed, that is, over time (and for many and varied reasons), their respective positions in today's world have been 'legitimized'.

I even went as far as to ask and question whether such 'legitimization' was justified in today's world (i.e. with the para commencing: 'If we had Dr Who's Tardis and took a modern army back to restore the monarchy...').

Frankly, I do not know how I could have been clearer given the restrictions of a HN post. Sure, I acknowledge that, with time, I could have chosen my words more carefully but then I'm no Shakespeare, nor do I have his ability to paraphrase the way he does. I even plead guilty to not having properly proofread my post with sufficient rigor—hence my failing to correct the misspelling of 'century', however I'd excuse this given the fact that I was posting from a smartphone under somewhat adverse conditions.

So how pedantic should one be in submitting a post to HN? For example, given HN's international readership, should one's pedantry extend as far as having to explain the differences in spelling between British and American English and or the way hyphenations differ between both version of the language just to ensure absolute accurate interpretation by one's readers? I would certainly think not. (If you haven't already noticed, I'm guilty of intermixing both aspects of language with considerable inconsistency and indiscretion in that post, moreover I was aware of doing so at the time).

Back to my examples: each case ought to be well known to most HN readers, therefore one automatically has to make make assumptions about what the average HN reader knows about said subject matter (after all, they are responding to a story within a specific context so one has to assume they have some knowledge about the matter).

Moreover, one must assume the average HN reader has a certain (base) level of knowledge of those events, which, on average, would not be overly deep (if one had to explain the background information and history from first principles for every case then one would get endlessly bogged down in a minutiae of details. Not only would space not permit such a post but even if it did then most readers would never bother to read it.

Let's be clear about this: when posting comment about any involved matter one has no option other than to compromise and put limits upon what one has to say, and, by necessity, that significantly limits the scope and extent of what one is able to cover.

Here, even if one were truly expert and knowledgeable with respect to said events—and I'm making no such claim in respect of myself—then to cover them in sufficient detail in order that the reader would gain a full understanding of them simply isn't possible. To do so, the reader would have to study many tomes of information related to each example at an academic level, which in volume would well exceed the size of Edward Gibbon's The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire many times over. Furthermore, the reader would also need to be versed in political philosophy to a reasonably sophisticated level. (I say that as one who once studied the subject as a subset of the main its discipline not to mention having studied history. Even then, I would never claim great expertise in these matters). That said, in this case such level of expertise is completely unnecessary as I am only stating the undisputed historical facts (as opposed to the myriads of disputed minutiae).

Ipso facto, such in-depth understating is not necessary to comprehend the point I was making.

Moreover, lecturing detailed points to HN readers serves little purpose (although I admit that it's sometimes hard to avoid). Doing so is likely to only alienate the average HN reader as it is an insult to his or her intelligence (HN readers being smarter than most). Also, grinding points overly fine serve little purpose, if a HN reader doesn't know a particular point then there's always Wiki to fall back upon.

That said, I always try to make my posts as explicit and unambiguous as is possible, and if you look back at my past efforts then you'll find that many of them are overly long specifically for that reason.

Even then, I accept that my attempts can fail as was recently brought home to me in a big way when on the matter of a COVID issue I replied to someone who had earlier offered a critical reply to what I had posted. Unfortunately, he was one of those increasing numbers people who are completely immune to facts. In my reply I provided him with additional evidence in support of my argument by way of undisputed facts (authoritative scientific references commonly agreed upon by experts in their relevant fields) only for him to further respond to effect that I could not have made such comments unless I possessed certain wartime and pre-war German sympathies (out of politeness I will not repeat what he said herein).

As you'd expect, HN quickly deleted his comment including my very retrained reply which also included my denial of such accusations. (In my reply I also mentioned that despite his unwarranted criticism of me, I was not going to attempt to flag his comment (and I did not) – and that it should stand as is as a testament to his view.)

As I see it, if one dares to comment online then one must come to accept such unwarranted criticism from time to time.

Re: War Is a Racket (1933)

#225
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A warfighter, I presume.

no

Right.

Why is it that so often it happens that if one comments on some topic or other then others automatically assume that one's of a certain belief and or that one belongs to some group or organization? I'd suggest that this likely shows a more narrowed thinking on behalf of those responding to the comment than it does of the comment's originator.

Often, in the grand scheme of things, the unfortunate outcome is that many people self-censor themselves to avoid being criticized or being in the spotlight.

This is very undesirable as it can shut down important debate.

Re: War Is a Racket (1933)

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...then there is a pretty high chance the war will be lost. That is the status quo. USA military has not won a war in my parents' lifetimes. USA military is optimized to consume resources, not to accomplish traditional military objectives.

The first Iraq war could be considered a victory. Clear objectives, once achieved the war stopped. Bush Sr was smart enough not to expand the war although a lot of people were pushing for a march into Baghdad.

That war didn't "stop", since USA military remained in Arabia for reasons. This occupation was cited as the reason for the 9/11 attacks. So, the enlisted did their jobs but the end result makes it feel sort of weird to call this a victory.

Re: War Is a Racket (1933)

#227
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It doesn't help that each new generation gets a barrage of propaganda pushed onto them equating military service with heroics, honour, patriotism, and so forth." I certainly agree. In my opinion, the basic principles are simple but in practice things get complicated very quickly. If I'm not careful here I'll be quoting everyone from pacifists through to Clausewitz and we will all be bogged down in a mire of detail.…

History is a problematic subject because it creates false dichotomys all over the place. When actually sacrifice for your country, your community, or your friends is admirable. It is also an utterly pointless waste. A waste that can be justified at some levels of abstraction but not at others. These points are not inconsistent. But people want to take one simple truth away from the complexity. History has obvious les…

Agreed, history is very problematic, it can and does create false dichotomies.

My comment and your reply provide an excellent example of why it's so difficult to post an adequate reply in short HN posts (see my detailed reply to anm89 in response to a similar issue).

No doubt, self sacrifice can end up being noble in circumstances where such action contributes to an overall better outcome but that's not the general case with WWI. (Please, I know that statement is grossly inadequate and that in specific 'local' instances it's not even correct—given that many of those soldiers who made such hugely noble sacrifices did so in order to directly benefited their buddies—not the nation state that actually sent them to war – however that explanation will have to suffice for now.)

Whether Owen fully realized it or not, the reason why his poem is so often associated with the negative aspects of Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori is that in the real political context of the First World War it is an undisputed lie.

At the time, if the average soldier, French, German, English, US etc., etc. had been fully informed of the actual reasons for the start of said war—the horribly degenerate state of the underlying politics of the nation sates involved, the pathetically inept and inbred thinking of both English and European monarchies—just to mention a few, then these soldiers would likely have walked away from those hellish battlefields and left the fighting to the protagonists who actually stated the war.

In short, millions of lives were lost unnecessarily over inept and faulty reasoning and the many 'petty' squabbles that occurred at both domestic political levels and similarly with international politics wherein diplomacy failed most spectacularly with enormously disastrous and tragic consequences for just about everybody. Moreover, many of these issues were never fully resolved let alone properly handled at war's end—Versailles and all that—which, in the end, led to WWII and even many more millions of unnecessary deaths.

If ever there were a war to make Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori the ultimate lie then the First World War has to be its quintessential example (it's why I selected it as the example).

Re: War Is a Racket (1933)

#228
post #122
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Since then I honestly think there should be no profit in making weapons while a war is going. It is an interesting thought but ... if the government tells the industrial chain "you aren't getting paid for this" then there is a pretty high chance the war will be lost. Being optimistic, maybe it could work for one war. Then the next war people ask "where are our weapons?" and the answer is "there are none". There is…

Don't they have elections for that purpose?

The should, but with modern politics such matters are only ever skirted around the edges. The real issues nearly always remain unresolved.

Re: War Is a Racket (1933)

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first Iraq war could be considered a victory. Clear objectives, once achieved the war stopped. Bush Sr was smart enough not to expand the war although a lot of people were pushing for a march into Baghdad.

That war didn't "stop", since USA military remained in Arabia for reasons. This occupation was cited as the reason for the 9/11 attacks. So, the enlisted did their jobs but the end result makes it feel sort of weird to call this a victory.

Well, we also say that the allies won the first world war, even though many people see the harsh treatment of Germany as contributing to the second world war.

(So I think that calling both of them victories is reasonable. If you want, you can also call both of them failures. But it seems a bit weird to call one a victory and the other not.)

Re: War Is a Racket (1933)

#230

The tragedy is that poor unfortunate grunts only get to know it's a racket after it's too late - when half of them are already dead. Unfortunately, it seems to be a chararistic of the human condition that learning about war is a slow prossess and that the horrors of experiencing it cannot passed down from one generation to the next. Experience gathered over millennia has demonstrated that it's essentially impossible…

I live in Maryland and keep a boat at a marina in Annapolis. By chance I meet students from the Naval Academy now and then. Every time I meet one the advice I share with them is I greatly hope no one will have to call them to action and get them or their fellow soldiers killed as a result of more stupid military adventurism.

And every single time there's been a look of revelation, if just a brief glimmer, as they realize the point I'm making.

Will it matter? Maybe. At some point one of them might be in a position to make better decisions about their fate and that of their subordinates. I do hope some random old guy saying "I hope they don't get you killed" certainly matters lot more than empty "thank you for your service" nonsense.

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