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The case against masks at school

theatlantic.com

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Re: The case against masks at school

#221

Post by hydrok9 »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #206
hydrok9 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not want to seek to diminish your very real belief that my issues are not real. But they are. My panic attacks in public started when I had to wear masks. When I am anxious or stressed, my breathing shallows. When this happens and I am wearing a mask, i have even less airflow coming in. I have tested this by simply lowering my mask, and examining how much air enters my nasal cavity. It is a huge difference. Or,…

I tried to explicitly state that I believe that your mental experiences are real and worthy of attention and care. > I should say, it makes a huge difference to my mental state, even if the change in oxygen is relatively small. This is the key point. The change in airflow and oxygen is extremely small. None of that means your mental state does not change when wearing a mask, but it is probably useful to understand th…

The key point is that you are wrong. It is absolutely due to a physiological process. You are telling me that it is "all in my head," and that it is impossible that a cloth mask over my face restricts my airflow. I am telling you it isn't.

>I tried to explicitly state that I believe that your mental experiences are real and worthy of attention and care.

I appreciate that. But you should be aware that people with anxiety hear this all the time. "What you believe is true matters. And is important. Now, having said that..." it isn't helpful and not really all that respectful, really. I can tell you with 100% certainty that restricting my breathing gives me anxiety. Not the idea of it, but the actual act itself. And that I feel less air entering my body, and more anxiety, when I wear masks. Other people have said the exact same thing happens to them in this thread. It's your choice who to believe.

Edit: saw your edit. Maybe it's not "oxygen," per se, and another chemical is to blame. That would be helpful, if I knew the exact mechanism! But unfortunately, not very useful in solving the mask/anxiety issue. I've opted just to get a shitty mask (in medical terms) that will suit me, for my health needs.

Re: The case against masks at school

#222

Post by tintor »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #158
hydrok9 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about if you have anxiety issues and the reduced inflow of air from masks gives you panic attacks? This has been my life for this pandemic. I take medication but it does not stop them 100% from happening, and I have to use anti-anxiety techniques most times I put one on to stop from being overwhelmed by anticipation. Does anyone care about people like me? It sure feels like they don't. And I have seen my physical…

[ EDIT: other commenters response to this comment made me go look up some original research on the topic. As a result, I fully retract what I've said below. I found several papers that report substantial restrictions of airflow from wearing a correctly fitted N95 mask. I was wrong, and I apologize for the misinformation. I did try to explicitly say that I was not doubting someone's experiences, but I apologize for ap…

You must be joking! Have you tried exercising with surgical mask or N95 respirator? I train regularly with N95 since Omicron started and they definitely negatively affect airflow and aerobic exercise performance. N95 respirator even more than surgical mask. I am used to them and don't have anxiety, but they aren't comfortable at all. They also affect temperature of air that you are inhaling as it mixes inside the mask with the hot air that you exhale, increasing your rest and cooldown time.

Re: The case against masks at school

#223

Post by twic »

hogrider wrote: post #122

Wtf, masks absolutely work. Who is pushing this stuff and for what nefarious reasons? Do they think all children should get exposed early to the virus and then we'll develop heard immunity in decades to come? We have the vaccine for that.

> masks absolutely work

The handful of large, high-quality studies show that cloth masks have no significant effect on transmission, and FFP2/N95 masks have at best a small effect. The article talks about specific reasons to think that even FFP2/N95 masks might be substantially less effective in schools.

Re: The case against masks at school

#224

Post by jasonshaev »

throwaway22032 wrote: post #102
criddell wrote: post #15

My kids attend a university in Canada and live in residence on campus. They have had incredibly strict rules around masking and gatherings. It's clear that they are only considering one variable - number of infections - and it seems like they aren't considering any other factors. For example, in the dorm there is a common area with a piano. Because of COVID, playing that piano is banned. Even if there was a reasonabl…

This is the fundamental issue with coronavirus mitigation measures. There are circumstances in which "drop everything" makes sense - if coronavirus were ten times more fatal, we'd do it naturally. But in general, looking at life from a perspective of "what is the minimum possible quality of life we can have" is depressing and fundamentally incompatible with the human spirit. I tend to think that people who operate in…

Referring to other humans as "subhuman" is disrespectful, at best. Where do you get off saying ANYONE isn't a "living being[s] with spirits and hopes and dreams?"

Having different priorities than you do does not make someone "subhuman" and I would seriously reconsider the language you are using.

Re: The case against masks at school

#225

Post by amluto »

cartoonfoxes wrote: post #211
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[ EDIT: other commenters response to this comment made me go look up some original research on the topic. As a result, I fully retract what I've said below. I found several papers that report substantial restrictions of airflow from wearing a correctly fitted N95 mask. I was wrong, and I apologize for the misinformation. I did try to explicitly say that I was not doubting someone's experiences, but I apologize for ap…

>But you should be aware that there is no actual reduced inflow of air due to mask wearing Huh? From https://weintraubcenter.dentistry.ucla.edu/n95-respirators-t... >Pressure drop is a measure of the resistance that the air meets as it flows through the respirator filter and into the mask. This is important because the pressure drop affects the comfort and breathability of the mask- specifically a lower pressure drop…

There are some genuine N95 duckbill style masks that have much lower pressure drop.

Re: The case against masks at school

#226

Post by sfotm »

TameAntelope wrote: post #144
aerovistae wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just bought one. Hoping it lives up to its marketing and I can enjoy a flight on an airplane without discomfort. I'm triple-vaccinated and absolutely sick of wearing a mask. I agreed with it for the first 18+ months of this but by now I'm just no longer in favor. I no longer believe covid will eventually "go away" and am certainly not in favor of wearing masks for years to come in the hopes that it does. Those that r…

The amount of time you spent trying to keep others safe is washed down the drain when you give up for no reason other than you’re tired.

This isn't really true, regardless of whether you like masks or not. There have been one or two level changes with respect to how much risk you're introducing to those around you as well as the personal accountability of those you'd affect. It's not surprising that different people have different tolerances for these risks.

Even without the above factored in, this is sort of like saying that not using your turn signals in traffic on the 100th turn nullifies their utility for the previous 99 (not a perfect analogy).

Re: The case against masks at school

#227

Post by criddell »

gglitch wrote: post #165
throwaway22032 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the fundamental issue with coronavirus mitigation measures. There are circumstances in which "drop everything" makes sense - if coronavirus were ten times more fatal, we'd do it naturally. But in general, looking at life from a perspective of "what is the minimum possible quality of life we can have" is depressing and fundamentally incompatible with the human spirit. I tend to think that people who operate in…

> Like, yeah, I will take the risk of contracting coronavirus to play the piano, because I want the piano in my life. I'm sympathetic to your point (and I love to play piano), but I can't help but ask, if we slightly reword your claim: would you be willing to take responsibility for spreading coronavirus to n other people so you can play the piano? Edit, to be clear: I'm not talking about the piano, or surface transm…

> would you be willing to take responsibility for spreading coronavirus to n other people so you can play the piano?

Would you be willing to accept responsibility for the increased depression and loneliness among the young people who live together in this building that could result from banning the piano?

Re: The case against masks at school

#228

Post by jaywalk »

gglitch wrote: post #165
throwaway22032 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the fundamental issue with coronavirus mitigation measures. There are circumstances in which "drop everything" makes sense - if coronavirus were ten times more fatal, we'd do it naturally. But in general, looking at life from a perspective of "what is the minimum possible quality of life we can have" is depressing and fundamentally incompatible with the human spirit. I tend to think that people who operate in…

> Like, yeah, I will take the risk of contracting coronavirus to play the piano, because I want the piano in my life. I'm sympathetic to your point (and I love to play piano), but I can't help but ask, if we slightly reword your claim: would you be willing to take responsibility for spreading coronavirus to n other people so you can play the piano? Edit, to be clear: I'm not talking about the piano, or surface transm…

How is him playing the piano spreading anything aside from possibly joy and happiness? What a ridiculous thing to say.

Re: The case against masks at school

#229

Post by subsubzero »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #158
hydrok9 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about if you have anxiety issues and the reduced inflow of air from masks gives you panic attacks? This has been my life for this pandemic. I take medication but it does not stop them 100% from happening, and I have to use anti-anxiety techniques most times I put one on to stop from being overwhelmed by anticipation. Does anyone care about people like me? It sure feels like they don't. And I have seen my physical…

[ EDIT: other commenters response to this comment made me go look up some original research on the topic. As a result, I fully retract what I've said below. I found several papers that report substantial restrictions of airflow from wearing a correctly fitted N95 mask. I was wrong, and I apologize for the misinformation. I did try to explicitly say that I was not doubting someone's experiences, but I apologize for ap…

What are you talking about with masks not restricting airflow, totally not correct and absolute misinformation. Here is what happens when you wear a mask while exercising hard:

https://ktvz.com/news/coronavirus/2021/04/26/summit-hs-runne...

Re: The case against masks at school

#230

Post by brimble »

TameAntelope wrote: post #209
brimble wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been pro-masking-in-schools for other reasons (including the practical reality that many schools would have had to shut down without it, since many teachers would have just quit—I know a lot of teachers, and whether you think it's right or wrong, that was going to happen, last school year especially, if precautions like masking, distancing, and long quarantine periods hadn't been enforced) but the risk specifica…

Right, but you aren't really someone who should have much of a say over this, and neither are any parents. The people most knowledgable about this topic are (though not universally) arriving at the conclusion that children should continue to wear masks. Besides, wearing a mask is not exactly a heavy burden to bear. Yes, it's annoying, but the consequences of not doing so are also annoying, and in more than zero cases…

> Besides, wearing a mask is not exactly a heavy burden to bear. Yes, it's annoying, but the consequences of not doing so are also annoying, and in more than zero cases deadly.

Sure, but tons of things are deadly in a non-zero number of cases, which most people give no thought to. Micromorts are everywhere.

I've been baffled at the strong anti-mask reaction and the way so many people've wanted to toss mask mandates and other measures out the second things even slightly improve, but if current trends continue (Omicron burning out, the virus generally getting less-bad, vaccinations continuing to be administered) I'll have (weakly, without really caring that much) joined team-no-mask-mandates-in-schools by next school year. My kids have been champs at wearing them but it's clear they're a (minor) problem in school, from the muffling effect if nothing else, and that compliance and good mask-wearing generally is pretty shit among younger kids anyway. I think we're probably past the cost/reward tipping point already, but again, I've tended to favor sticking with safety measures until we're extra sure, if only to avoid policy change whiplash.

OTOH I kind of love masks and hope it remains non-weird to go out in public in one. Two years of no illnesses in our house has been awesome.

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