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Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

221–230 of 250 posts

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#221
post #161
post #120

Does freedom have inherent value, or does it have to lead to something else in order to be valuable? This editorial seems to assume the latter. For example, it suggests that the sole justification for alcohol legality is that it can have benefits in moderation. Notwithstanding the dubiousness of this claim, does anyone really believe that is why alcohol is legal?

> Does freedom have inherent value, or does it have to lead to something else in order to be valuable? If you assume the first then you're a fundamentalist. In order to compare different moral values, we need to look at what they lead to in practice, and weigh that. So the abstract "freedom" doesn't cut it, you need to be able to say, what is the practical benefit of such freedom? So that we could compare it with pra…

>If you assume the first then you're a fundamentalist.

Apparently your opinion is that I should be dismissed out of hand as a "fundamentalist".

>So the abstract "freedom" doesn't cut it, you need to be able to say, what is the practical benefit of such freedom?

This is the conceit I intended to highlight, yes.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#222
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being subjected to the carceral system is indeed bad for your health, but there's a gap here: you haven't explained why banning smoking means we have to put people in prison. I would have thought to just fine them, or tax purchases out of existence. No need for shackles.

You can't tax purchases out of existence. That creates a black market. Indeed, countries that have raised taxes to astronomical levels have significant illegal markets for tobacco.

Bootleg cigarettes are a problem even within the United States, particularly in regions where the state or local tax is exorbitant.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely most living people are worth more than the economic cost of keeping them alive. They don't seem to even mention the economic value of a living person, other than to say that they didn't take into account the difference in productivity between obese and non-obese people.

Given that most smokers/obese people tend to die right around retirement age, we probably aren't leaving much on the table (from a purely economic perspective). Smokers probably aren't missing enough days of work to cancel out the $60k they save the system by smoking (not to mention all the extra taxes they pay). But there's more value to human beings than their economic value, hence my talk about non-monetary costs.…

Lots of tremendously valuable labor is done by people who don't pull down a wage. I.e., retired people who volunteer and watch the grand kids. Many people -- perhaps most -- contribute more value to society in retirement than in their wage labor years.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#224

> However, there is no moderation in tobacco. There is no level at which tobacco smoke is safe for the consumer or the people around them or, as we are seeing, even those who are exposed in a tertiary environment. I've used tobacco products perhaps from 0 - 5 times a year from adulthood on. While not "safe", pretty low risk. I have the same relationship with caffeine and alcohol. Nothing can be all that enjoyable if…

I would love to acquire power and label a bunch of things I dislike as “vices” so I can control opposition. Posting too much on social media is a vice. It releases dopamine according to my experts and can be harmful to others. It shouldn’t be done often. So now your “vice license” needs to have this “badge”. I don’t want any part of the nanny state you describe.

> Posting too much on social media is a vice

Sounds like you'd love https://minus.social/ where you are limited to 100 posts, period.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what, that's the first good plan I've seen for handling the issue.

Would love to give myself a vice ban occasionally.

Speaking in terms of tech addiction, there are tools and strategies out there to manage. Anti-engagement tools you might call them. The "Digital Wellbeing" app on Android can be used to limit certain apps, such as to one hour per day. The unhook.app extension neuters YouTube's engagement by disabling things like suggested videos. I have also set a Windows Task Scheduler task to run shutdown /s /hybrid /t 60 in the evening. Having a reminder of goals to curb irresponsible behavior can often be enough to curb them.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#226
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue was prohibition in the USA was that it indiscriminately criminalised selling, transporting, owning and consuming alcohol. With tobacco, modern countries could simply ban selling while allowing consumption. The risk is that the black market would flourish. I think the current policy of constantly hiking the price is a compromise: it restricts availability while limiting the development of parallel sell chann…

Banning prerolled cigarettes while allowing the sale of rolling or pipe tobacco might be a good middle ground.

That would push a lot of smokers to unfiltered roll-your-own cigarettes.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#227
post #34

In 1994, the Canadian federal government reduced its tobacco excise tax. Quite a lot too, nearly 50%. It wasn't a libertarian whim, or the desperate power grab of a cigar-lover. The black market was rampant. About 30% nationally approaching nearly 100% in some communities. (Clever: you can measure the rate by collecting butts from public ashtrays and the street.) Prohibition doesn't eliminate demand. And in the Canad…

I don't know if there's provincial taxes or anything, but a similar dynamic happens in the US, there's arbitrage smuggling between states with different taxes. A bit dated, in the link the negative states are one where cigarettes are net flowing out of the state, so you can see where they are going and coming from. At first, I was going to state that it would be interesting to compare organized crime trafficking toba…

Oh yes. there's absolutely analogies to that here. It's more common with liquor. Quebec has substantially lower taxes than Ontario and there's a major city straddling the border. Both ordinary individuals and bar owners do routine runs to Quebec to stock up. This is illegal, but given the unrestricted internal border, is about as likely to be caught as interstate smuggling in the USA.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nicotine is fairly non-addictive (in gum and patch form. Vapes, may be slightly more addictive due to oral fixation -- but still nothing compared to actual tobacco). Benefits are mostly in appetite suppression (if one is prone to overeating/unhealthy binging), mental stamina (usually due to the aforementioned appetite suppression), emotional anti-lability, and greatly improved saliva production (from nicotine gum, er…

> Nicotine is fairly non-addictive (in gum and patch form. Vapes, may be slightly more addictive due to oral fixation -- but still nothing compared to actual tobacco). You are somewhat mistaken. Natural tobacco is fairly non-addicting because it doesn't contain nearly the amount of nicotine than what is in cigarettes, and what is in cigarettes is not natural tobacco. Nicotine, itself, is highly addictive, and there a…

I still don't see it.

The only justifications I've come across are a matter of post-hoc rationalization ("because nicotine is addictive, X, Y, and Z"; but no "nicotine is addictive, because A, B, C"), and taking it as granted.

I have yet to see anything explaining why nicotine is addictive (not merely, how it could be addictive, but the evidence behind why this statement is just taken as fact).

Everything being written about it just flies in the face of my experience with nicotine/tobacco, and what I've seen from talking first-hand with smokers, vapers, and other types of users. It's like I'm listening to a bunch of upper middle class people talk about what it's like to be homeless: completely detached from reality -- and simply repeating a bunch of thoughts and ideas that they've seen somewhere else.

Even Cochrane's, a gold standard in this field, Tobacco Addiction Group just takes it at face value that nicotine is addictive. Where is the evidence? Where is the paper trail? Who has decided this? When and why? Why cannot I find any high-impact, high-citation count research that explains and justifies why nicotine is addictive?

The only thing that has moved my opinion of this matter, was a Surgeon General report another poster replied to me with: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK179276/pdf/Bookshelf_N...

Page 30:

"It was not until the 1988 report that the Surgeon General declared that cigarettes are addicting, similar to heroin and cocaine, and that nicotine is the primary agent of addiction (USDHHS 1988)."

Four years after nicotine replacement therapy via nicotine gum is introduced, the Surgeon General declares cigarettes to be addicting, in the same vein as cocaine and heroin (no it's not what was actually said, but it is implied), and that nicotine is the cause of addiction. I'm going to have to read the original 1988 report, but I'm not convinced that this is anything but political (when is it not?), rather than actual.

I'm more liable to agree with (same page):

"Additionally, throughout the 1960s and 1970s, the general understanding of smoking behavior and nicotine addiction was very limited. At the time, health scientists viewed smoking as primarily psychological and social, rather than pharmacological or biological. The 1964 report concluded that tobacco dependence should be characterized as a form of habituation rather than addiction (USDHEW 1964), drawing on a distinction established by WHO in 1957. That definition emphasized the physical effects of the drug, the compulsion to obtain it at any cost, and the habit’s detrimental effects on the individual and society (WHO 1957). The WHO Expert Committee on Addiction-Producing Drugs observed that for cigarette smoking, evidence was lacking at the time for a typical abstinence syndrome. “In contrast to drugs of addiction, withdrawal from tobacco never constitutes a threat to life,” they wrote. “These facts indicate clearly the absence of physical dependence” (USDHEW 1964, p. 352)."

I keep seeing things just claimed as fact, without a single shred of evidence, besides "we've all agreed upon it. There are WMDs in Iran."

Apologies for the hyperbole and hysterics, but this is just maddening. Who gets addicted to nicotine? Who is actually physically and mentally dependent on nicotine products (excluding tobacco)? Where are these people?

The only people I've met who have issues with nicotine products are smokers -- including those that are trying (always unsuccessfully) to quit via nicotine replacement therapy. I'm more convinced nic gum manufactures lobbied the Surgeon General, under some plausibly deniable pretenses, than I am to believe nicotine, a chemical weaker than caffeine, is addictive.

Absolutely mad.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#229
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any evidence? I've done free base nic, salt nic, and nic polacrilex. Salt nic would be, in my opinion, the most habit-forming (but not addictive), due to a quick and high "peak," and quicker clearance -- leading to a need to re-dose more often. That's also granted that the route of administration (vaping) allows for an insane amount of nicotine to be absorbed, much more than you can ever get with pouches,…

> Do you have any evidence? Do you? This is pretty much settled science, and has been since 1986. Page 30: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK179276/pdf/Bookshelf_N...

Read the original report your report is citing: 10.1001/jama.1988.03720190003002 (excerpt: https://sci-hub.se/10.1001/jama.1988.03720190003002)

This reads like a thinly-veiled marketing piece for Nicorette (now owned by J&J and GSK) via lobbying -- four years after nicotine gum receives FDA approval in the U.S.

I have yet to see any actual research on isolating nicotine as the addictive component in tobacco products.

Re: Why do we still permit tobacco use? (2015)

#230

Simple answer, because we live in a free society and the consideration for what is outlawed isn't how beneficial an activity is for the person who engages in it but how dangerous it is to others. And so while I'm okay with banning smoking from places where others are affected, tobacco consumption in private or voluntary settings shouldn't really be an issue. Also interesting angle in the piece to declare that tobacco…

> Simple answer, because we live in a free society and the consideration for what is outlawed isn't how beneficial an activity is for the person who engages in it but how dangerous it is to others. To be honest, I don't see how you can look at American drug laws and come to this conclusion. It's certainly what we say we do, but when you actually look at the laws it place, be it drugs, gambling, marriage or any number…

Not really. Most narcotics lead to serious drug problems that definitely put a strain on others. I wouldn't say our drug laws are perfect, but they are aimed at reducing dangers to others, and to a reasonable degree, it accomplishes that.
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