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Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

economist.com

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Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#221

Post by carapace »

Galanwe wrote: post #98
gedy wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I don't see the point or value at this stage. They control their media tightly, and if they just stopped talking about Taiwan I doubt many people in the mainland would care. They've proven they don't need Taiwan and vice versa.

> if they just stopped talking about Taiwan I doubt many people in the mainland would care Not at all. For a mainlander, Taiwan _is_ a region of China, think of it as Hawai for the US. People in the west see Taiwan as a separate country that China tries to forcibly absorb. People in mainland see Taiwan as a region of China that tries to be independent. Also, there is a lot of eyes on the Taiwan case from mainlanders…

FWIW in re: the US and Hawaii, a more appropriate metaphor would be China and Tibet.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#222

Post by FooBarWidget »

petilon wrote: post #214
FooBarWidget wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that viewing Taiwan that way as purely a consequence of propaganda is like saying that American patriotism, and the fact that Americans believe that the South's cecession is illegitimate or unrighteous, is purely a consequence of having taught people so since childhood. Yes education is a contributing factor. But it is my no means the only factor. Your take also ignores the fact that unification is Chinese cor…

> unification is Chinese core value Is warring with all neighbors a core value too? Chinese government, through censorship, controls the minds of the Chinese people. The government needs to update the core values.

My point is that whether the west thinks the Chinese ought to think that way, is not very important. People can debate that all day long, but at the end of the day the Chinese do think that way, and they are willing to fight for it.

This has strategical implications. Do we want to grandstand or do we want to actually solve a problem? If we want to grandstand at all cost, then we have to wage war with China and force them into submission. If we want an actual peaceful resolution then something has to give.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#223

Post by manuelabeledo »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #99
subroutine wrote: post #44

China would be much better off if they just gave up on the whole Taiwan charade. I understand how badly they want to put Taiwan under thumb like they did HK, but Taiwan is really the only issue I foresee with potential to derail China's progress.

It isn't that easy. It's not just China's government that believes Taiwan is part of China — China's people also believe that. There is a saying that if China is democratic, they would have invaded Taiwan yesterday. Or another saying: if the president lets go of Taiwan, the CCP would be overthrown tomorrow. Another factor that complicates things is the fact that Taiwan is a strategic location for the US's military co…

Having been to both Taiwan and China several times - this is a bit inaccurate.

Yes, there is a certain believe among Chinese that Taiwan is an inalienable part of their territory, but most don't believe that reunification should be achieved by force. There is also the idea that Taiwanese people are indeed different from mainland Chinese, but at the same time, any strong Taiwanese identity is the result of propaganda and indoctrination by the Taiwanese authorities.

In other words, it seems that Chinese citizens believe that Taiwanese are "misguided children", thus there is no reason to punish them militarily, and the Taiwan question should be treated as an internal conflict, like any other separatist movement.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#224

Post by thesuperbigfrog »

nindalf wrote: post #210
thesuperbigfrog wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Why would they give up on this “charade” as you put it? They’re closer than ever to annexing Taiwan in 2021. They hold every card. Except how the rest of the world would react. It seems like a recipe for war.

The rest of the world is scared of even offending China by calling Taiwan a country. You really think they’re going to go to war over Taiwan?

>> The rest of the world is scared of even offending China by calling Taiwan a country. You really think they’re going to go to war over Taiwan?

Yes.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#225

Post by synergy20 »

Here is a perspective on China's current aggressiveness: those in power are from the culture-revolution age(1966-1976), which means they did not get good education(if anything at all). Most of them are not even middle-school graduates. Their youth time are filled with beating those well educated ones based on ideologies accusations.

Xi himself did not even finish middle school, his professional skill is the worst comparing to his past peers, he could not even read correctly many times in public since he came in power.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#226

Post by layer8 »

satronaut wrote: post #138
notpachet wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Omicron is real. It's having very tangible impacts on the ability of countries to provide necessary healthcare services to their citizens. People who normally should be first in line to receive care (cancer patients and the like) are having their critical services interrupted or deferred. Just because you personally don't see the impact doesn't mean it isn't there.

Source please? It sounds like the most mild of all the 99.97% survival rate variants of covid. If you don't want to get sick, then stay home, but don't tell me how to live my life

Note that any constant factor of "less cases requiring hospitalization" is very quickly compensated by exponential spread. London for example has just locked down because the speed of Omicron spread threatens to overwhelm its hospitals.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#227

Post by FooBarWidget »

manuelabeledo wrote: post #223
FooBarWidget wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't that easy. It's not just China's government that believes Taiwan is part of China — China's people also believe that. There is a saying that if China is democratic, they would have invaded Taiwan yesterday. Or another saying: if the president lets go of Taiwan, the CCP would be overthrown tomorrow. Another factor that complicates things is the fact that Taiwan is a strategic location for the US's military co…

Having been to both Taiwan and China several times - this is a bit inaccurate. Yes, there is a certain believe among Chinese that Taiwan is an inalienable part of their territory, but most don't believe that reunification should be achieved by force. There is also the idea that Taiwanese people are indeed different from mainland Chinese, but at the same time, any strong Taiwanese identity is the result of propaganda…

The context of my post is that I replied to another post that talked about the west fighting China.

Hence, I did not say people believe reunification needs to be achieved by force. What I did say is that if foreign forces pressure China into letting Taiwan go, then China will fight back.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#228

Post by sudosysgen »

petilon wrote: post #214
FooBarWidget wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that viewing Taiwan that way as purely a consequence of propaganda is like saying that American patriotism, and the fact that Americans believe that the South's cecession is illegitimate or unrighteous, is purely a consequence of having taught people so since childhood. Yes education is a contributing factor. But it is my no means the only factor. Your take also ignores the fact that unification is Chinese cor…

> unification is Chinese core value Is warring with all neighbors a core value too? Chinese government, through censorship, controls the minds of the Chinese people. The government needs to update the core values.

This is naive. The government simply doesn't have that power. If they tried to downplay Taiwan people would be absolutely furious.

The extent of "mind control" is really not that great. The internet exists, and despite imperfect controls people have access to information. It would probably take Xi down to try to abandon Taiwan.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#229

Post by Aeolun »

nindalf wrote: post #146
subroutine wrote: post #44

China would be much better off if they just gave up on the whole Taiwan charade. I understand how badly they want to put Taiwan under thumb like they did HK, but Taiwan is really the only issue I foresee with potential to derail China's progress.

Edit: apologies to anyone who read my comment analysing the situation and assumed that I’m some kind of warmonger. At no point did I advocate for Taiwan to be annexed. I merely pointed out that China really wants to and they’re stronger than ever in 2021. Shoutout to the dude who implied I’m a Nazi for saying this. Why would they give up on this “charade” as you put it? They’re closer than ever to annexing Taiwan in…

> Unify China and importantly, face down America and show the world who’s #1.

I think this is why the war weariness would matter little.

Americans may be many things, but liberal or conservative, they’re all proud as fuck.

They won’t initiate a war, but barring a complete takeover of Taiwan in the course of a day (e.g. Crimea), they’ll fight.

The same is more or less true for Japan, which really just needs an excuse.

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