President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment • Hacker News Board

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#221

Post by SuoDuanDao » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

lnxg33k1 wrote: post #156

jahnu wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the best ways for those of us in the democratic West to combat this is to not tolerate when our own governments promote false narratives. This displays the virtues of our imperfect system better than anything else, imo. Don't tolerate lies, hypocrisy, or sophistry from our leaders even if they are nominally on 'our side'.

I mean I think that is a very simplistic, limited and isolated point of view to address a population, but also very optimistic about the democratic West population capability to logically read situations. I see tennis players in China being incarcerated for speaking out, I saw recently a video of a guy trying to report about Uyghurs concentration camp, and if I was worried as Americans right now about China (not even…

I suspect the two of you are agreeing more that in initially seems - IMHO the proper response of the west to the current time of troubles is to double down on the values of freedom over safety that made us the dominant cultural force. Stupidity exists in dictatorships also, it's when we're not willing to be distracted by propaganda against our rivals and look at our own mistakes that a democratic system lets much of that stupidity cancel itself out.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#222

Post by flohofwoe » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

bostonsre wrote: post #164

toxik wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever you think that you’re on the outside looking in, seeing the world for what it is while others seem blind, you should reconsider your perspective. The Chinese people is not some herd of sheep without mental faculties. I wince when I see quotes like these spoken about a people of literal billions.

Do you know of any examples of descent against the government that ended well for those that spoke up? I highly doubt the people are sheep and I'm pretty positive I would act in the same exact way and keep my mouth shut in order to live my life if I was living in a country with an oppressive government.

The collapse of the Eastern European socialist countries 30 years ago is an excellent example. But it only works when the general public had suffered enough and isn't willing to support the regime anymore. And the economic situation needs to get worse for one or two generations, it won't happen overnight and in a working economy. A few dissidents "speaking up" to incite change is a romantic idea, but it's not enough.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#223

Post by bobthechef » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

toxik wrote: post #110

TrispusAttucks wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.” ~ George Orwell, 1984

Whenever you think that you’re on the outside looking in, seeing the world for what it is while others seem blind, you should reconsider your perspective. The Chinese people is not some herd of sheep without mental faculties. I wince when I see quotes like these spoken about a people of literal billions.

I don't see anything in that quote that's specific to the Chinese in general. Most people make an at least intuitive distinction between individuals of an ethnic or national group and the ethnic or national group as an organized political entity. When we say "the Russians exterminated thousands of Polish officers in Katyn", obviously we don't mean every Russian exterminated Polish soldiers. When we say "the Germans exterminated millions of Poles", we don't mean every German was murdering Poles. We mean that the the Russians or Germans as organized political entities, led by certain people, perpetuated those crimes. Some individual Russians and Germans themselves payed for opposing such actions. Similarly with "the Chinese". That's why when there is animosity between two groups, the cautious presumption might be that someone of the other side is an enemy, but personal contact can reveal what their individual stances are and that they may differ from the political stance.

FWIW, Americans themselves often suffer from a great deal of myopia and Americentrism, regardless of political leaning, and lots of people who lived under the boot of the Soviet Union who've moved to the US are sensitized to the subtler forms of psychological warfare the American public has been subjected to for decades.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#224

Post by mcv » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

mortehu wrote: post #191

gambiting wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quite the opposite! I'd much rather that the website denied me access than treated my private info like their own property purely because they are too lazy to be GDPR compliant.

This could be a client setting, rather than forcing this preference on 400 million users because of where they live.

I would strongly prefer if my browser handled my privacy preferences and ensured my personal data isn't shared with websites I don't want to share it with.

Because even if a website promises to obey GDPR rules, I have no way to verify if they actually do.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#225

Post by satronaut » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

jahnu wrote: post #101

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #63

The scale of some Chinese people's commitment to support of their government's chosen narrative against facts is quite impressive / scary. Zealots make great cannon fodder, and the more cannon fodder the higher the chance of winning. It bodes poorly for Hong Kong, Taiwan, and any other country with a coastline along the South China Sea.

One of the best ways for those of us in the democratic West to combat this is to not tolerate when our own governments promote false narratives. This displays the virtues of our imperfect system better than anything else, imo. Don't tolerate lies, hypocrisy, or sophistry from our leaders even if they are nominally on 'our side'.

"Don't tolerate lies, hypocrisy, or sophistry from our leaders even if they are nominally on 'our side'. ", This bugs me so much. The biden administration literally complained to MSM about the bad news they were getting. In a few days CNN came out with "Gas prices are coming down ", being still not as low as the Trump era. Reminds me of 1984 when Winston makes up an article about chocolate rations

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#226

Post by inglor_cz » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

toxik wrote: post #110

TrispusAttucks wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.” ~ George Orwell, 1984

Whenever you think that you’re on the outside looking in, seeing the world for what it is while others seem blind, you should reconsider your perspective. The Chinese people is not some herd of sheep without mental faculties. I wince when I see quotes like these spoken about a people of literal billions.

"The Chinese people is not some herd of sheep without mental faculties"

Neither were inhabitants of all the other nations where totalitarian regimes seized power, but it did not help them.

Totalitarian systems are really adept at controlling people. It is a matter of survival for them.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#227

Post by titzer » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #123

thesuitonym wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have the same problem in the US. Certain "Freedom loving" sects applaud military intervention, increased police presence, spying on citizens, and the death of any protester, peaceful or otherwise.

US embarrassments, however, have movies made about them, as opposed to burying them as deeply as possible whilst simultaneously threatening every single citizen with, essentially, removal from society, if they speak against the chosen narrative. No country is innocent, some are, however, free (moreso, at least, enough to matter, enough to choose if the need arises).

I have yet to see a feature-length film depicting Trump the way, e.g. Oliver Stone's "W" or Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" depicted Bush. Trump's crimes are buried in a mountain of...other crimes, and the atmosphere is so thick with bullshit that investigating facts is to tempt a firehouse of political hate of epic proportions. I think certain topics are virtually suicide these days.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#228

Post by vidarh » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

bostonsre wrote: post #148

BLKNSLVR wrote: post #63

The scale of some Chinese people's commitment to support of their government's chosen narrative against facts is quite impressive / scary. Zealots make great cannon fodder, and the more cannon fodder the higher the chance of winning. It bodes poorly for Hong Kong, Taiwan, and any other country with a coastline along the South China Sea.

I personally haven't met anyone from China who has liked their government. I would assume there is some selection bias there and those that love their country are more likely to stay home, but would be really interested to talk to a true believer. I wouldn't be surprised if pressure was applied to those individuals to harass the one that spoke out against the party. The regime is brutal and most will toe the line whe…

If you want to talk to a true believer, go to reddit, on /r/sino. /r/china has the people critical to China, /r/sino has the pro-CCP crowd. As for similar subs I'd expect the threshold for getting banned to be fairly low, though.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#229

Post by tomp » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

oxymoran wrote: post #45

The brainwashing must be strong for students thousands of miles away from China in the middle of nowhere Indiana for them to feel the need to snitch on dissenters. Or, more likely, they were threatened before they left China that they would be watched while abroad.

This is the tried-and-tested Stasi technique.

You don't need to be brainwashed, you just need to be afraid.

Afraid of being reported yourself, if you don't report others. You never know, if the "other" was just a false flag to test your reporting. You never know if your best friend, who also witnessed the same thing, reported. He doesn't know if you reported. Reverse prisoner's dilemma.

Re: President Daniels responds to Chinese student's harassment

#230

Post by asimpletune » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

stelonix wrote: post #216

asimpletune wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, now sure I follow how Orwell glorifies these embarrassments, because I think it's the exact opposite. Second, the USA/EU is not perfectly innocent wrt to propaganda, but still... it could be much worse.

Subjective comparisons are really useless on a debate eg. "I think USA/EU are bad but China is worse" while someone else will say exactly the opposite. You'll then say "he's blinded by propaganda" and the other side will say the same. If the debate is in a western website, you win, if it's in China, they win. That's a flamewar shitshow, not a debate. The Orwell/Huxley comparison wrt the way China/America respectively…

Yeah, I mean you're basically saying if someone is so inclined they can approach any question from a perspective of bad faith, and never recognize any merit to a theoretically valid argument. I don't think that problem in general can be solved, even if we eliminated propaganda or otherwise. No one can make anyone agree with someone, even if they're right.

That being said, I can still ask questions and say what I think and see what happens. I'm legitimately open to being wrong, in fact I'd love to be.

Also, I'll just add this briefly, I didn't say anything about China. I just said it could be much worse. That could come from my own people (I'm from the USA).