100 years of whatever this will be • Hacker News Board

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#221

Post by cblconfederate » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

colechristensen wrote: post #170

cblconfederate wrote: post #95

Markets have existed without empire overlords thoughout history though. Egyptians did not have to enforce trade rules to their neighbours, and despite whatever clashes everyone traded with each other in the mediterranean. It is exogenous rules that required the protection of an empire, such as the raids of pirates, or the threat from another empire. Since our current world order started after WW2, the governments hav…

There absolutely was regulation in Bronze Age markets. There were taxes and tax breaks for favored merchants, there were embargoes and wars fought over goods.

> regulation

by whom?

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#222

Post by pessimizer » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #181

preseinger wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All useful markets are regulated.

All useful markets are regulated by the free choices of the market participants of which transactions they will and will not engage in , yes. The idea that a free market, with the definition of "free" that I gave (all transactions are voluntary) is "unregulated" is simply wrong. In a free market, you can't force other people to do things they don't want to do; you have to get them to voluntarily trade with you. That…

So you don't even believe that externalities are possible?

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#223

Post by whatshisface » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

dmitriid wrote: post #187

moistrobot wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Code doesn't actively resist your attempts to improve it. Our broken institutions are fighting to protect their kingdom

> Our broken institutions are fighting to protect their kingdom Three years ago I bought an apartment. I got a loan from a bank over internet and phone. The contract was three pages of clear Swedish that even I, with my rudimentary knowledge of i, could understand. The contract signing was intermediated by a person whose job is to make sure everything goes smoothly. In the end, all of the following was guaranteed : -…

It improves that process in a disintegrating third world country, which many of us may find ourselves in within our lifetimes.

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#224

Post by thegrimmest » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #207

thegrimmest wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically that people cannot be expected to accept their own fates with dignity? I would make the case that overwhelming violence is an appropriate consequence for violating the peace. Good policing techniques are very effective in maintaining social order, in spite of economic inequality - see Japan.

Why do you think the only weak people that deserve protection are the wealthy? The idea that the only legitimate function of government is to protect the status quo is strange, and in a world where everything is assigned an owner is a maxarchism not a minarchism. In a real Darwinian world, rich people wouldn't be able to walk the streets without a huge amount of security, and eventually that security force would kill…

I'm saying that "society" is basically an agreement to peacefully coexist, using due process to resolve disputes. It's not an agreement to cooperate. Just because the processes by which some some succeed and some fail are non-violent doesn't mean that those successes and failures shouldn't be total.

> people who own everything are the intellectual and physical champions

They're not, and I never said they were. All I said was that if they acquired their wealth through legitimate means (ie without the use of force), then they are entitled to keep all of it and do with it what they please.

Say we live in a society with 10 people, each with one dollar. Now say one member of this society invents something useful and sells it to the other nine for 75¢. The wealth gap in this society will have grown dramatically. What exactly entitles the other nine to any of their money back? What does it matter how the entrepreneur spends his money?

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#225

Post by thurn » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

Veelox wrote: post #211

lisper wrote: post #103

This essay seems deep and profoundly insightful but I don't think it actually is. Its ultimate call for "better designed regulation" is the no-true-scotsman fallacy in sheep's clothing. How do you know if your regulations are "properly designed?" If they produce good outcomes. But the problem is that there is no consensus about what a good outcome is. Some people are not happy, for example, unless women are quite lit…

You seem absolutely certain you are right about certain issues. One of the big draws of America originally was that is was huge and open and you could join a community that agreed with what you mostly. Yes some people view abortion as a right, others view it as murder. The process shouldn't be to gain enough power to force everyone to follow what you want. It should be to establish rules we can all live by and then l…

I assume you'd also have felt this way about e.g. segregation? An equally controversial issue in its time?

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#226

Post by thegrimmest » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

germinalphrase wrote: post #203

thegrimmest wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically that people cannot be expected to accept their own fates with dignity? I would make the case that overwhelming violence is an appropriate consequence for violating the peace. Good policing techniques are very effective in maintaining social order, in spite of economic inequality - see Japan.

Is the history of revolutions/social collapse really marked by despots, dictators and royalty not using overwhelming force?

Most recent revolutions and social collapses have been marked by the idea that we should seize property from some and redistribute it to others.

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#227

Post by beebmam » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #167

pbourke wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Conservatives aren't against rules, they are against changing rules. That doesn’t ring true to me. Both liberals and conservatives want to change and preserve rules according to their viewpoints.

Conservatives want to change rules to get back to their view of what was good about the past. Liberals want to change the rules according to their view of what should be good about the future.

"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect"

https://www.bradford-delong.com/2018/12/frank-wilhoit-the-tr...

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#228

Post by colechristensen » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

cblconfederate wrote: post #221

colechristensen wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There absolutely was regulation in Bronze Age markets. There were taxes and tax breaks for favored merchants, there were embargoes and wars fought over goods.

> regulation by whom?

The local king / mayor

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#229

Post by AnthonyMouse » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

notpachet wrote: post #49

All of the current histrionics that we hear from DeFi advocates regarding escaping the evil centralized Banks and Regulators and what not -- you know what they remind me of? They remind me of what I hear from junior developers when they're tasked with fixing an antiquated, broken software system. These developers typically lack the experience and the patience necessary to fix the system incrementally from within, so…

The difference here is that the existing codebase isn't just broken, it's structurally resistant to being fixed.

Fixing your old legacy software takes time, but probably less time than starting over from scratch.

Fixing the legacy financial system doesn't just take the time to fix that system; first you have to fix the system of politics and corruption that makes that system what it is. And fight all of the people with powerful lobbyists and an enormous financial stake in the status quo.

When the amount of work it takes to fix the existing system is more than the amount of work it takes to build a new one, the answer changes.

Re: 100 years of whatever this will be

#230

Post by generalizations » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

notpachet wrote: post #49

All of the current histrionics that we hear from DeFi advocates regarding escaping the evil centralized Banks and Regulators and what not -- you know what they remind me of? They remind me of what I hear from junior developers when they're tasked with fixing an antiquated, broken software system. These developers typically lack the experience and the patience necessary to fix the system incrementally from within, so…

I think you're probably right, however, it also seems like there's been value in those hard forks simply because we get to experiment with alternate ways to build the system. Often, it seems like the original project will take the best ideas from the fork and integrate them; those are ideas that might not have been created otherwise.