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Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

astralcodexten.substack.com

221–230 of 805 posts

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that not what the ADS we see on TV are helping patients to do? I am being dead serious here. Confused. And to be clear, it should not work that way at all. I think it does work that way a lot more than many of us would care to admit. Happy to be shown I am wrong.

That's one reason TV advertising for medication is strongly regulated in plenty of places.

So far, I believe it is allowed in the US, Saudi Arabia, and a few other places.

The rest of the world considers it as illegal it is harmful / unethical.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#222
post #150
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this an example of some rigid and ineffective thinking patterns? Article publishes sound arguments, doesn't talk down to the audience, admits problems with appeals to authority... and converts a conspiracy believer! ...No way, there is no way that can possibly work, the others are way too dumb, and the convert is a bad person... basically anything to just go back to pretending appeals to authority work. Despite…

This is a blogger who took time out of their day to do this. Why do you have to be catered to to be convinced? The blogger didn't produce any new data, it was already there, you chose to ignore it, or rather, picked something else to be convinced by. It's not bullying or "talking down to" to simply ignore bullshit, it's effective use of your time.

The blogger didn't produce any new data.

I was never an ivermectin proponent — although I thought the "horse dewormer" rhetoric was self-defeating, because it's obviously and well-known to be also a human dewormer (amongst other parasites), and the "horse" part just seemed to be played up to make ivermectin supporters look stupid — but this article is indeed the first one I've seen to make the parasite-COVID-comorbidity argument. It's not, in fact, the first time that argument has been made... But it seems like the first time that link was made was within the last month, as the blog post links to the following Twitter thread from a medical researcher: https://twitter.com/AviBittMD/status/1456376484180922368

It's not ridiculous to me that this blog post would be someone's first encounter with that argument, considering how recent the link is.

I have a little bit of experience with reading lots of research papers about COVID safety measures, and coming to the opposite conclusion of medical experts: in early 2020 I read lots of papers on masks, and tried to convince most of my family to mask up even when the CDC said that masks didn't work. I happened to be right, and to my parents, I now look like a smart and forward-thinking, science-driven person. But that's only because I was right! I could see someone doing the same with the ivermectin studies, and while it appears that they were wrong, I don't think it deserves dismissal or derision — especially when it comes from someone willing to change their mind and admit they were wrong when presented with compelling evidence to the contrary.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#223
post #8

"It feels right to me because it’s the most troll-ish possible solution. Everybody was wrong!" - I know this is said tongue-in-cheek, but this mischaracterizes the medical scientists who have been working themselves to the bone trying to understand this virus and disease. Actual medical science, and science in general, doesn't make claims beyond what we know for certain (or at least, we're very explicit about the cla…

> Actual medical science, and science in general, doesn't make claims beyond what we know for certain Medical science made the claim that multiple sclerosis was "female hysteria," until imaging technology was able to see the damage. A doctor I know today claims that a lot of patients symptoms are really psychological and everyone at work is annoyed when they come in. When I brought up the case of multiple sclerosis,…

A doctor isn't a medical scientist, he's a kind of very self-confident mechanic.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#224
post #6

This is exactly the sort of thing that YouTube, Twitter, et al are suppressing. Someone thoughtfully listening seriously to what the proponents of Ivermectin are saying, weighing it up and saying "looks good but you forgot...". You can't get this sort of excellent rebuttal without allowing a site like https://ivmmeta.com/ into the debate.

I wonder if YouTube would have been better to implement a no medical advice policy. Not a no advice which runs contrary to the official guidelines policy.

This is going to the heart of the problem: Youtube has replaced TV, and what people see on TV they tend believe to be real, and even if they don't believe that at the moment they see it they may well remember it as fact later on.

I think youtube is great for showing people DIY stuff, for home videos and so on, but it has clearly allowed itself to be hijacked as a platform for politics and it was/is ill prepared for the attempt at weaponizing the immense audience that it commands.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#225
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I changed my mind. I was making pro-Ivermectin comments just yesterday. This is the first serious anti-Ivermectin argument I've seen.

This is the first anti-Ivermectin argument that you want to believe, but there have been many serious anti-Ivermectin arguments in the past. It's just that you don't have the background knowledge to digest them, but that doesn't stop you from wanting to believe that there is some kind of miracle cure that 'they' are suppressing. Now consider that this is just one example of a class of such issues and that there is an…

Edit: I probably wrote this comment to aggresively, which is ironic given that that is what I am arguing against. My apologies.

When you see someone you disagree with convinced by an argument, I think that should be an occasion for celebration and joy! People changing their minds to what you believe to be true is the only way to get change. It needs to be encouraged and people who manage to do this need recognition.

Changing your mind in polarized situations is hard! People who manage it did something impressive. Heck, even people who are willing to listen to the other side deserve recognition.

You saw someone who changed their mind, and you chastised them for not having changed their mind earlier, and for having been wrong before. That is rather counter-productive. Instead, be happy with the conversion. If you want more interaction, ask them why they believed the other thing before. Less importantly, ask them what changed their mind.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#226

This is great. It also underscores a methodological opportunity - is there a way to group together a huge amount of studies, regardless of disease or treatment, and create a semantic association graph that takes things like climate, culture, geography, and the like into account? You could rank researchers and institutions and locations in order to weight contributions to meta-studies, but you would be also able to as…

If there was such a tool, you wouldn't be able to use it for much because you'd have to preregister all your searches.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#227
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However I think he misrepresent some anti-vaxxers: it's not a matter of trusting science, it's a matter of trusting scientists with heavy conflict of interest to tell the truth while most of us don't have the required scientific knowledge to evaluate if they're telling the truth. That's an excellent point - unfortunately people who are easily labeled as "anti-vaxxers" and perceived as uneducated anti-scince crowd q…

> A number of people (myself included) would perhaps pay less attention to ivermectin as in covid drug if crowd would really take it and do studies instead of just publicly mocking people who are trying to look into it. I don't think i've ever mocked any ivermectine taker (at least not for taking a medecine that may help some of his problems), and most "vaxxed" didn't either. And i'm aware than not all unvaccinated p…

> people really have trouble explaining the moon's crescents, it is really funny

If you don't have that difficulty then you probably haven't thought about it long enough - yet.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#228
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the correct answer to wait for more reliable studies? Which is what most "anti-ivermectin" folks were saying to begin with? If your primary goal is to have a miracle cure in hand that would allow you to push back against vaccine mandates, then this approach probably won't sit well. But if you are interesting in actually finding truth, than waiting for larger, more robust studies was the answer.

Why wait? Why not take ivermectin as a precautionary therapeutic given it is well tolerated with low risk of side effects? There's a chasm between the epistemic question of "does this drug really work?" and the pragmatic question of "does a risk-reward analysis under uncertainty say that I should take this mostly safe drug that might slightly reduce my covid severity?" FWIW, I wouldn't take ivermectin either as a pro…

What other prophylactic treatments do you take in your life before or after COVID? Because in my lifetime I can think of only a small number of classes of general prophylactic treatments I've ever seen a small number of groups of people take.

- Silicon valley rationalist types taking stacks of vitamins despite having no evidence on bioavailability because they are generally without side effects and who knows, you might live forever. I think the consensus on this now is that more or less this is not a useful practice, though I am unaware of any evidence for it being unsafe.

- Prophylactic hormone replacement therapy in middle aged women, which was eventually generally recognized as unsafe because of unexpected cancer risks not initially understood.

- Prophylactic breast self-examination, mammograms, and prostate exams based solely on age, the former of which have been significantly dialed back over the last decade because the risk of false positives or catching slow-growing low risk cancers causes a net negative from the treatment. I don't know what the state of prostate exam research is.

- Prophylactic aspirin for heart stuff: we seem to go back and forth on this, but the last I read was that actually there's mounting concern about chronic low-dose aspiring. At the very least, it's not obvious this is doing anything.

- Statin treatment in response to mild elevated blood pressure with no symptom of disease; not exactly prophylactic, but close in the sense that it's about advance management of expected disease. And last I read, researchers were increasingly recommending dialing back statin treatment for minorly elevated blood pressure because of, again, unforseen side effects.

So I just mention this to say that what I take from your post is "the precautionary principle suggests giving more weight to prophylaxis with no known side effects" and what I take from major medical stories in my lifetime is "no known side effects almost always turns out to involve side effects in the end, and that has to be part of the precautionary principle as well".

And I should note all of the above prophylaxis is based on clearly defined treatment regimens and physician supervision, not the kind of wild west ordering various formulations of ivermectin at unknown doses with or without medical supervision on an ad hoc basis.

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#229
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The major reason why we have antibiotic resistant bacteria is because we use literal tons of the stuff for meat production and too many countries have too lax controls for antibiotic use in humans, which means they are taken for things were they don't help, or are not necessary, and are taken in the wrong dosage and for the wrong duration.

Malaria seems to develop resistance pretty fast. Are farm animals getting those treatments in their feed?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic_use_in_livestock

Re: Ivermectin: Much More Than You Wanted to Know

#230

> Mainstream medicine has reacted with slogans like “believe Science”. I don’t know if those kinds of slogans ever help, but they’re especially unhelpful here. To me such slogans are a disservice. Science should not be a matter of belief by definition. This way of promoting science is what brings belief-centric discussions to an arena that cannot benefit from beliefs. I remember one presidential debate in the US wher…

Science is a means of approaching beliefs. Science is not the philosophical position that we should be agnostic about the existence of gravity or magnitude of gravitational forces. Unlike other means of reaching beliefs, science supposes there is little reason to hold a belief that cannot be supported by induction from experimental data, and that a correctly set up experiment can falsify previously held beliefs and require the theory to be updated. A corollary of this is that stuff generally isn't to be believed simply because a very old book and much revered book says so (which is bad news for Aristotle's speculation as well as monotheism, but somewhat better news for Newton's laws because there are practical working applications of them). But when it comes to anthropogenic climate change or vaccine efficacy the evidence very much is there - people can either believe it is probably true or demonstrate their superior understanding of why evidence actually doesn't support the hypothesis (ideally by counter example, but pointing out confounding factors that have been missed is a start). Either approach is consistent with science, though only the latter will further scientific knowledge. An approach to formulating beliefs which isn't consistent with science is the prior that if scientists virtually all agree on the evidence base for something, the contrarian theory is probably right.
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