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Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

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Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#221
post #92
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the push notifications themselves are encrypted, isn't there still the question of whether Apple store the (App x Notification x User/phone number) graph?

This applies on every single app, and is quite irrelevant as you already trust Apple by using their closed source device. If they want your data, they sure get it.

Unless you only contact Signal users who have verified and compiled the client themselves, you put the same kind of trust in Signal, which specify what data is logged (phone numbers are stored hashed for discovery by other users).

The same may or may not be true for Apple (I have no idea) but claiming it is irrelevant as an answer to a question about whether an _Apple_ technology is encrypted, is mind boggling to me.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#222
post #196

Anybody concerned about these issues should consider donating to their favourite non profit that can have an impact that works in the area. Most HN users can afford $20/year pretty easily (others could afford $200/month and not even notice it) As they say, “Put your money where your mouth is.”

Would you name some please? Do you mean like ACLU (BCCLA in Canada)

For digital civil rights issues, I give my donations to the EFF. I personally think some of the regional ACLU affiliates can be hit-or-miss, but that's certainly not a universal opinion.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#223

Why did they even incorporate in the USA, I'd guess they'd have less work in like the Seychelles or Belize.

If they were in the Seychelles or Belize they would be covered by the NSA and no subpoena would be required to get traffic data.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing any company can do about that. Spying programs and laws will only worsen unless people really voice their concerns and elect the right people.

Except Apple is making a direct attempt at solving the issue as it relates to CSAM (and easily expanded to other data) and facing a huge backlash. I wonder if there’s no solution because we’re (myself included) are just stubbornly unwilling to consider any solution that isn’t absolute privacy. I’m not willing to sacrifice my privacy to a nosy government, but willing to consider solutions that might allow the governme…

Agreed. The general sentiment I perceived from HN at the time was that almost nobody was willing to accept Apple's CSAM scanning, even though CSAM had been confronted as an issue before the internet was widely available. I perceived a lot less room for opinions in favor of sacrificing a limited amount of privacy for greater public good, or similar. After the media finished its reporting on the subject, it seemed like there wasn't much more discussion about it, and Apple now seems poised to go forward with releasing its implementation of the scanning anyway at some unknown future date.

The arguments about slippery slopes and potential surveillance weren't as interesting to me as the opposing argument: that a very high level of privacy (not even an absolute level) carries consequences for a specific segment of society by the intrinsic nature of what is kept private, and in the name of protecting that segment of society, the tradeoff is not worth it.

There is also the idea that data on a hard drive can be as damaging to human livelihood as physical contraband, to the point that the vast majority of the world's legal systems, not just those of the U.S., have decided that the data should not exist under any circumstances. CSAM is one of the few classes of digital data that compels the creation of scanning systems for such data on a scale that isn't driven by political ideology, propaganda or similar. It's difficult to imagine how Apple would be obliged and driven enough to implement such a system out in the open and in the name of the public good if the publicly announced reasoning was to scan any other class of data (assuming that Apple can be trusted, at least).

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#227
post #196

Anybody concerned about these issues should consider donating to their favourite non profit that can have an impact that works in the area. Most HN users can afford $20/year pretty easily (others could afford $200/month and not even notice it) As they say, “Put your money where your mouth is.”

Would you name some please? Do you mean like ACLU (BCCLA in Canada)

ACLU would be fully onboard with this nowadays, as long as the right groups of people are targeted. ACLUs ship has sailed years ago.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#228

While I applaud Signal's response I expect this entire event (subpoena and response) will be provided as one of the exhibits to congress by the Department of Justice to justify their request that it be unlawful to provide such services. The DoJ will say, "See, here is this horrible crime we are investigating and because this company chose to make it impossible for law enforcement, with a warrant and a subpoena to get…

Or perhaps more likely, they'll go the lavabit/CALEA route, and order that their platform be modified to allow wiretapping, at which point Signal must choose between either complying with such requests, or going out of business. If that happens, hopefully usage of p2p messaging apps like Briar or Status will gain more traction and usage.

>complying with such requests, or going out of business

Complying with such a request is going out of business.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#229
post #196

Anybody concerned about these issues should consider donating to their favourite non profit that can have an impact that works in the area. Most HN users can afford $20/year pretty easily (others could afford $200/month and not even notice it) As they say, “Put your money where your mouth is.”

If you use Amazon.com for shopping, and you do, then you can choose Signal Foundation for your benefiting organization. It's a small amount of money, but it's a little bit for every purchase.

Re: Grand jury subpoena for Signal user data, Central District of California

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>there exists criminal behavior that most reasonable people would agree is bad and should be stopped Absolutely. >In formulating your statement that examining criminal behavior is a problem, you are suggesting there shouldn’t be ways to uncover crimes. I didn't get that at all. Before Signal and other encrypted apps, folks who didn't want to be spied upon would meet in person, in private places or write messages in c…

You’re attacking a straw man. I never proposed anything other than recognizing the cost of encryption. And if you are to honestly do so, then you also need to recognize things happen now digitally that would have been in person before, which ends up leaving clues like witnesses and DNA. The world isn’t black and white.

>You’re attacking a straw man. I never proposed anything other than recognizing the cost of encryption.

I assume you're referring to this sentence in my comment:

   What you seem to be advocating is that everyone's 
   privacy should be forfeited so police can get 
   information without doing, you know, police work.
Note that I said seem. Which, in this context, means that's what I understood you to be saying. Thank you for clarifying.

What's more, I'm not attacking anything or anyone. Rather, I'm expositing my views WRT encrypted communications and police work.

That you interpreted the expression of my views as an attack says more about you than about me, IMHO.

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