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Facebook chooses profits over people

peoplesworld.org

221–230 of 253 posts

Re: Facebook chooses profits over people

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What alternatives to ads do you suggest? I don't see donations or paid services as a viable alternative (especially for people in emerging markets -- will companies still have any incentives to chase these markets?).

The problem is not ads , the problem is with Ad Tech . The tracking, user data collection and exploitation in secondary markets. There are ethical ways to have a business that uses ads a source of income and does not require "ad tech". This is one of the reasons that I like the Brave/BAT model so much. It shows that you can have an "ad-based" economy without having to have Surveillance Capitalism. People could take p…

Thanks!

It's questionable, but I think the idea is that ad tech makes ads more valuable? Ie a user gets something relevant to them.

Maybe the future will be this personalization happens offline on the user's device.

Your example on WhatsApp buttresses my point I guess. With payment, businesses have to rely on part of their userbase. And we all know that segment largely comes from particular geographies. This knowledge largely affects a company's strategy.

Ads are not totally different -- CPC/CPM varies across markets. But maybe can be compensated by volume.

Re: Facebook chooses profits over people

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course "we" can, but we at this site certainly won't, and the relentless tide of half-baked rationalization to this end can drown the weak swimmer.

Sorry do you speak for all members of this website or just yourself. The weak swimmers are what exactly? people who value other people for who they are, not for how much they own? This is confusing.

You should work on your reading comprehension.

Re: Facebook chooses profits over people

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your dentist a corporation that is lead by a board of directors and has a series of shareholders that help define how it operates? If not then the comparison is not really valid. > The problem is the lack of ethics of Facebook and Big Tech in general. And big oil. And big pharma. And big anything. Large corporations are built to maximize profit. And it is this focus on profit that is the problem. So 'profit seekin…

Unless you work and sell your labor "at-cost", you are also "profit-seeking". It does not mean that you are also "unethical". Profit-seeking should not imply unethical , no need to twist language when there is already the vocabulary to convey the proper meaning.

> Unless you work and sell your labor "at-cost", you are also "profit-seeking".

Well the last time I checked I didn't turn a blind eye to my work helping to start a promote a genocide in Burma so I really don't see your point.

I don't think that profit-seeking ever results in behaviour that is ethical. If I make a decision based on my desire for more money then it is almost always going to be a choice not based on ethical or moral values.

The difference is the scale. If I cut a few corners as a independent contractor then at worst my client gets slightly less value from their money.

If I cut corners as the owner of a chain restaurant then my profit-seeking has an impact on the employees I have and my customers.

If I am a major corporation that has billions of users then my profit-seeking has incredible impact.

Re: Facebook chooses profits over people

#224

In other news, the sky appears to be blue.

People in this thread say variations of your comment, that it's obvious, that everyone knows it. But then at the same time people still make excuses for companies like Facebook. They urge others not to assume any bad (or purely profit oriented) intent, to believe that the people working at Facebook are honest about what their PR campaigns and Zuckerberg claim and the list goes on... Also it is absolutely common that…

I find it very interesting the number of people in these comments making the simple claim that companies are often (at least often enough to be relevant) primarily motivated by things other than profit.

That's not even what neoliberals argue. The more compelling, but still not that compelling, argument is that certain types of profit maximization (usually long-term, "pro-innovation" profit maximization) inherently result in outcomes (maybe net outcomes) that align with pro-social (i.e. good for society) motivations.

Re: Facebook chooses profits over people

#225
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple, and Cook in particular, is a member of groups that are actively working to stop the proposed environmental laws in the US. So yes indeed, deflection https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/oct/01/apple-amazon...

This is a completely bogus claim, and you really should not be taking content from the guardian seriously - this is a great example why. Apple, in this case, is one of many companies that generally supports various lobby groups for various causes. In this article, they note that some (unspecified) groups that Apple supports oppose the current budget bill. Nowhere in this article can you conclude that APPLE specifical…

Bogus how? Sources?

> Nowhere in this article can you conclude that APPLE specifically opposes this bill BECAUSE of the climate change clauses in it.

That is a lot of caps.

Apple gives money to group A. Group A opposes a bill that contains environmental provisions. Apple will not refute the actions of group A.

Who cares if group A says their objection is for other reasons. They are still trying to sink a bill with environmental provisions while saying they are in favour of said bills. Apple can't have it both ways.

Re: Facebook chooses profits over people

#226
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem isn’t Facebook, a private company, seeking profits. Because of the last few decades of weak law enforcement, lying and breaking the law is seeking profits. Most large companies make very calculated decisions to break the law while weighing the risk of getting caught. In many cases, the fines are tolerable when considering much larger profit.

Decades? Anyone remember the Robber Barons? It is an inherent problem with the system.

Robber barons were mostly not breaking the law. The laws were written to stop them.

Re: Facebook chooses profits over people

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not ads , the problem is with Ad Tech . The tracking, user data collection and exploitation in secondary markets. There are ethical ways to have a business that uses ads a source of income and does not require "ad tech". This is one of the reasons that I like the Brave/BAT model so much. It shows that you can have an "ad-based" economy without having to have Surveillance Capitalism. People could take p…

Thanks! It's questionable, but I think the idea is that ad tech makes ads more valuable? Ie a user gets something relevant to them. Maybe the future will be this personalization happens offline on the user's device. Your example on WhatsApp buttresses my point I guess. With payment, businesses have to rely on part of their userbase. And we all know that segment largely comes from particular geographies. This knowledg…

> I think the idea is that ad tech makes ads more valuable?

This is what they want us to believe. I am pretty sure that in some years we will look at this claims from ad tech in the way that we see today the mid-century claims from Big Tobacco about the benefits of smoking.

> Maybe the future will be this personalization happens offline on the user's device.

It's already part of the present. This is exactly how Brave does the ad-matching. To make it perfect the only thing that I think is missing is for the user to have a way to train their own matching model, or at least to provide some kind of feedback about the types of ads that are relevant to them.

> And we all know that segment largely comes from particular geographies.

I believe that most companies already operate on the assumption that they will provide the service globally and lower-income markets are subsidized by richer regions. That is certainly true for any product that depends on network effects.

And for the products that do not depend on network effects, then the segmentation is likely to be a good thing. A more diverse set of companies, trying to solve the specific problems of different markets - instead of pushing for one-size-fits-all plans from big Corporations - is good thing in my book.

Re: Facebook chooses profits over people

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you work and sell your labor "at-cost", you are also "profit-seeking". It does not mean that you are also "unethical". Profit-seeking should not imply unethical , no need to twist language when there is already the vocabulary to convey the proper meaning.

> Unless you work and sell your labor "at-cost", you are also "profit-seeking". Well the last time I checked I didn't turn a blind eye to my work helping to start a promote a genocide in Burma so I really don't see your point. I don't think that profit-seeking ever results in behaviour that is ethical. If I make a decision based on my desire for more money then it is almost always going to be a choice not based on et…

You are using profit-seeking to convey the (immoral) idea of "favoring profits over ethics", while I am using the more (ammoral) neutral definition of "doing something for financial gains". Can we agree to that?

If so, you'd have to argue why you want to change a neutrally-charged concept into something that carries negative connotations.

Re: Facebook chooses profits over people

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You made me think, is it even possible to create a social media network geared towards education (sharing skills and ideas) for the masses? I suppose YouTube is somewhat there. But it's blended with so much crap.

Social network, no. Social networks are for talking about yourself, and that's generally not very productive for educational purposes. However, in the slightly earlier life of the internet BBSes and forums were all the rage, and those were actually useful, because the focus was on discussing common interests instead of everyone just showing themselves off (and forums are still around! Discourse is a modern open sourc…

Concerning social networks, it's even more than just talking about yourself. It's about creators' wants of acknowledgement/views and the greed and addiction associated with it.

Of course users in a hypothetical social education network would want views from their material too, but it would require the removal of sinking to the lowest common denominator from the equation. As you pointed out, that seems to already exist in specific forums/sites/etc.

Really, I guess it comes down to the users. People who want to learn will seek out education and discourse wherever they can. And those who don't seek it out, either don't want to or are unaware that they can. Is it possible to make education and sharing of ideas more attractive via a social network to that second group?

Re: Facebook chooses profits over people

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would even say it's simpler, and the problem is Mark Zuckerberg specifically. He's deeply immoral, and continues to do what Facebook does for power and money. I understand, on some level, the excitement - he's a computer nerd who came to control an organization that is more powerful than the majority of the world's countries. Zuckerberg controls the platform that is the primary means of communication for hundreds o…

> He's deeply immoral, and continues to do what Facebook does for power and money. I don't seem him wielding power. Its not like he's managed to convince half the population of a country that they should really abstain from something for shits a giggles. I'd go further and say that facebook it's self has surprisingly little power to shape the opinions of its users. There are powerful actors that use facebook as a med…

> I don't seem him wielding power. Its not like he's managed to convince half the population of a country that they should really abstain from something for shits a giggles. I'd go further and say that facebook it's self has surprisingly little power to shape the opinions of its users. There are powerful actors that use facebook as a medium for broadcast, but not facebook it's self.

Zuckerberg is meeting top political leaders of his own country, and sometimes others, and negotiating with them, FB is basically treated like a country-sized negotiating entity. That's certainly has to feel like a power trip, very few people have the type of access Zuckerberg has. And as for his power internally, as CEO and majority voter, anything major FB does is ultimately a decision by Zuckerberg, so that's his power. That includes things like how Facebook's algorithms are shaped, if they're prioritizing exposure, clicks and addicting users with dopamine hits, that's ultimately his responsibility.

> I think this is hyperbole. I don't like the man, and I think he is morally naive. But to compare him to a dictator fundamentally undermines just how bad dictators are.

> Take for example a human trafficker. They procure girls by lying to them. They know they are lying to the girls. They then deliver them to people who they know are going to force them to be raped. The trafficker does not take any steps to mitigate the outcome.

I'm really not making the comparison lightly, but I think Zuckerberg is on the same level. He's procuring user data (and attention), and he does that by tricking users into maximizing their engagement with the platform, which includes feeding some of them an endless stream of harmful misinformation, or carefully designing an addiction loop for teenage girls on Instagram, or some of the other things that platform does. Then FB delivers the product (data) in full knowledge that the process of acquiring this product has seriously hurt people.

I cannot know what Zuckerberg is thinking, of course, but don't believe him naive. He might have been at first, but I'm sure he has long understood exactly what is happening, and what FB does, he just doesn't care about the people. There are certain sadistic dictators or warlords who specifically enjoy hurting people on an individual level, but for most of them it's just utter disregard for human well-being. They may not wake up in the morning excited to jail and torture a hundred random people, but they see nothing wrong with that happening as part of their effort to preserve and increase their own power and wealth. This is where I believe Zuckerberg to be the same. Does he actually enjoy genocide in Burma, or convincing millions that vaccines are evil, or driving some teen to suicide over body issues? I'm certain he doesn't. But do those things bother him? I don't think so, I imagine it's an absolute non-issue for him.

So my stance is that Facebook is beyond the typical corporate greed level of evil, and cannot be reformed or improved because it's all an extension of a one particularly immoral person seeking to maximize wealth and power at any cost, without any consideration for improving the world or minimizing harm, except what's necessary for PR.

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