The latest campus cancellation is different • Hacker News Board

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#221

Post by nverno » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

metagame wrote: post #213

nverno wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If their goal was good PR, I'd say they have failed quite dramatically. This kind of thing is surprising from MIT and I doubt it has a lot of support among the science/engineering types. It is common to see this behavior in social sciences nowadays, but less so in engineering.

Nobody who's in the demographic of people who could be attending university in the next ten years is going to see some professor getting knocked from a position as anything noteworthy; there's no viral potential in somebody not doing a speech. But the speech, if it goes well, could have and has historically had great potential to inspire people to going into the field of climate science. Making the best impression is…

I disagree his ideas of merit-based entry would alienate a sizeable portion of perspective MIT students (the article also shows supporting polls). MIT, not merit-based, are you kidding?

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#222

Post by q1w2 » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 2:50 PM UTC

nimbius wrote: post #128

just for clarification, the speaker has a newsweek peace that rails against diversity, equality, and inclusion as a sinister regime that actually works against diversity and actually hurts the public trust. he then goes on to insist universities are 'diverse' enough, so dont worry about them. his citations are...tentative at best. https://www.newsweek.com/diversity-problem-campus-opinion-16... The guy also made a god…

Argue the argument, not the argumentator.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#223

Post by civilized » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

metagame wrote: post #206

civilized wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The activists who demanded this aren't the ones who need to be persuaded on climate change. MIT just handed the center and right-of-center, full of actual climate skeptics who need to be persuaded, another cancel culture event. Your whole post hinges on the assumption that the prospects of fighting climate change hinge on the approval of college town progressives. In reality, their approval is the least important thi…

[flagged]

As Mounk's essay notes, the vast majority of the public agrees with the professor on affirmative action. MIT just told that public what it thinks of their views.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#224

Post by q1w2 » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

whitexn--g28h wrote: post #193

air7 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

E.g. In the orignal "Women make 70 cents for every dollar a man makes" gov memo, it was also said that Asian men make 115 cents for every dolar a white man makes. That doesn't fit the narrative so it's just ignored.

The gap between white and Asian outcomes is due to immigration policies which make it easier for wealthy people to get in. The US imports rich asians who can afford to send their kids to MIT, the rich get richer ect. The gender pay gap is a different issue and doesn’t need to address immigration policy.

> The gap between white and Asian outcomes is due to immigration policies

source?

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#225

Post by jwond » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #76

wepple wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The power they have isn’t over us, it’s over institutions and businesses who seem to bend to the will of the mob. I’d like to see some data on whether a Twitter storm in a teacup has any measurable negative consequences for a typical large organization, and whether they need to listen as often as they do.

They don't have any power, other than to annoy the institution. The only power here is the power that MIT has over the people they book to speak, and since MIT doesn't want to be annoyed, they canceled the speaker. The problem with cancel culture is a problem with bad employment law, and a problem with cultural institutions without any core ethical beliefs.

> They don't have any power, other than to annoy the institution. The only power here is the power that MIT has over the people they book to speak, and since MIT doesn't want to be annoyed, they canceled the speaker.

The ability to get others to do what you want them to is absolutely a form of power.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#226

Post by BurningFrog » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 2:51 PM UTC

mkr-hn wrote: post #152

pjc50 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is basically it; the normal mechanisms don't work properly, and nobody in the mob has any faith that engaging with any formal process is going to achieve a result, so they complain in public. (This specific incident sounds like a storm in a teacup, but there's far more serious and less visible problems with racial discrimination in academia) Similar to #metoo. Reporting sexual harassment, assault and even rape q…

Dr. King put it best: "a riot is the language of the unheard." Some portion of the mob on Twitter is people chasing clout and performing social justice. For example: I've been attacked for "generalizing nonbinary people" by cis people while describing my own experience as a nonbinary person , so I don't doubt people like that drive a lot of the discussion, but the vast majority is sincere if sometimes misdirected ang…

> Dr. King put it best: "a riot is the language of the unheard."

Sometimes. It can also be the language of those who know they're powerful enough to do what they want.

Classic example: Lynchings.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#227

Post by alanlammiman » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

m0llusk wrote: post #39

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

This appears to be driven at a basic level by a desire for justice. Having had some thousands of years of experience with the quest for justice we can say with some level of certainty that effective justice seeking has some particular characteristics without which justice remains elusive. There must be a clear statement of the injustice which must be corrected. There should be a hearing where all involved can state t…

yep, you need due process. Other replies referencing metoo and MLK make an excellent point - that mass movements are usually a response to 'due process' that is in practice deeply flawed and biased to the point that it is ineffective. But a) Unlike metoo and civil rights, afaik a formal process that even aspires to fairness to decide issues such as speaker cancellation doesn't exist in the first place, b) even in the case of issues like metoo, surely the ideal outcome is to fix the structural biases and flaws in the processes so they work in practice, rather than rely on ad hoc journalistic investigations indefinitely (aside from preventing such crimes from being committed in the first place, of course)

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#228

Post by mkr-hn » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #226

mkr-hn wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dr. King put it best: "a riot is the language of the unheard." Some portion of the mob on Twitter is people chasing clout and performing social justice. For example: I've been attacked for "generalizing nonbinary people" by cis people while describing my own experience as a nonbinary person , so I don't doubt people like that drive a lot of the discussion, but the vast majority is sincere if sometimes misdirected ang…

> Dr. King put it best: "a riot is the language of the unheard." Sometimes. It can also be the language of those who know they're powerful enough to do what they want. Classic example: Lynchings.

I mentioned the segment of rioters who use it as a cover in the comment you replied to.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#229

Post by whitexn--g28h » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

h2odragon wrote: post #32

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author is head of something he calls "Persuasion." Not everyone is impressed. https://newrepublic.com/article/158401/problem-yascha-mounks... It's free speech 101 - you can say what you like (as long as you're not inciting crime or violence.) But no one owes you a pulpit. I have far more of a problem with mob farming and Twitter incitement: see also anti-vaxing, organised climate change denial, and political rabb…

You don't think there's any real, individual, independant doubt about vaccines, global warming, or political causes? Just "everybody you disagree with"? or is your side also controlled by conspiracies of the elites dictating the opinions of their followers?

At this point over 200 million Americans have been vaccinated. 700k people have died of COVID-19. In the US there is no independent individual who could come to a conclusion other than it is safer to get vaccinated than to get COVID-19. I’m not sure who is spreading the anti-vax nonsense, but at this point it seems like more of a Darwin Award than a conspiracy by the elite.

Re: The latest campus cancellation is different

#230

Post by rdtwo » Sun, Oct 10, 2021, 2:53 PM UTC

ekianjo wrote: post #6

umvi wrote: post #3

How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Seems like they can bully and intimidate any organization from universities to corporations to GitHub projects to kowtow to their demands. Their demands are usually to fire, boycott, or boot people with opinions that run afoul of the mob. Not a healthy precedent to set. We will regret this later if we continue down this path.

> How do we neuter the power of Twitter mobs? Stop listening to them? EDIT: That's especially effective since the Twitter mobs keep moving targets every couple of weeks anyway. They don't have any patience.

Use the same Twitter mob to target and destroy the spineless administrators what made the decision in the first place.