Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#221

Post by saagarjha » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 1:29 AM UTC

asdff wrote: post #144

tornato7 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From Apple's perspective, developers are either creating competing products or products that Apple will eventually compete with. Either way they would rather not help.

My tinfoil hat theory is they allow the jailbreaking scene to persist instead of shoring up holes within a second of each jailbreak's release because they poach tweak ideas. When looking at the overlap between popular early jailbreak tweaks and features that were added to iOS over the years, this really doesn't seem farfetched.

The Apple of today does fix holes as soon as they can. But they don't really need to steal jailbreak tweaks anymore to figure out that people want to be able to change their homescreens…

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#222

Post by saagarjha » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 1:30 AM UTC

musicale wrote: post #155

jobu wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting. As a developer I've often felt outright hostility coming from Apple developer relations, and maybe it's this lack of a partnership mentality. They generally treat end users really well, but it's like they see external developers as some sort of parasite feeding on their products. In my experience it's difficult to get actual technical help unless you personally know someone internal to Apple.

If you're lucky you can get a WWDC lab session. However, I suspect Apple developer relations has largely turned into a broadcast/funnel system since 1:1 support doesn't scale well to millions of developers.

Online WWDC has actually made it fairly easy to get a lab session, it's pretty nice!

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#223

Post by Retric » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 1:34 AM UTC

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #216

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But at this point I doubt Netflix is willing to risk it as there is simply to many streaming options. Well, but as you point out, they aren't using IAP at the moment so there's nothing to risk. An interesting question is what would happen if Apple decided to play hardball and demand Netflix use IAP again, with no external option, similar to what is required for video games. Honestly, my money would be on Netflix pu…

If I'm understanding the outcome of the Epic case that these documents came to light from, that kind of hardball would probably go pretty poorly. While Apple mostly won the case, between this and a case in South Korea, it's pretty clear they're going to be required to allow some kind of linking for external account management of "reader apps," which they classify Netflix as. Personally, I suspect if Apple had not gon…

Are you sure about game subscriptions? They don’t require Blizzard to use IAP for their MMO related apps. These could do a few in game actions, so there is some flexibility.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#224

Post by Wowfunhappy » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 1:37 AM UTC

smoldesu wrote: post #204

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But at this point I doubt Netflix is willing to risk it as there is simply to many streaming options. Well, but as you point out, they aren't using IAP at the moment so there's nothing to risk. An interesting question is what would happen if Apple decided to play hardball and demand Netflix use IAP again, with no external option, similar to what is required for video games. Honestly, my money would be on Netflix pu…

Moreover, Netflix is an app that would work perfectly fine in the browser. Netflix was providing a native app as a courtesy to the customer, not the other way around. Most Netflix subscribers I know would probably shake their fist at Apple and God and then go back to binging Friends in Safari.

I don't think you can do EME in mobile safari? That would probably be a dealbreaker for the movie studios (logical or not).

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#225

Post by chipotle_coyote » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 1:37 AM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #212

JohnBooty wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple by comparison demands 15% which is 3.5x as much of a cut. Apple provides credit card processing, and approval into the App Store (plus according to a comment in this email, it sounds like they keep Netflix in the App Store promotion rotation as "free" ad-space). This isn't anywhere near the value that AWS provides That's debatable. To put it mildly. Apple provides them access to, literally, nearly a billion pot…

> Apple provides them access to This is in many ways the same argument that ISPs used during the net neutrality debates as to why Netflix should have to pay them extra money. Netflix was using all the bandwidth, and ISPs were keeping that access fast... blah, blah, blah. Many of the objections that I had to ISPs trying to double-dip on bandwidth fees back then also apply to this idea that Apple's product to Netflix i…

If there's a really serious criticism I have of Apple -- well, there's a fair number of varying degrees of seriousness. But I think their original sin is that while they want everyone to acknowledge how much they ostensibly do for developers, they generally act as if applications bring no value to their platform.

Many years ago, when BeOS was just getting going, Be CEO and former Apple exec Jean Louis-Gassee was asked what the difference between Be and Apple was. He answered, "We don't shit on our developers." It's disappointing, to say the least, that this is still a valid criticism criticism nearly a quarter-century later.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#226

Post by wbl » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 1:47 AM UTC

jacurtis wrote: post #145

ksec wrote: post #83

I am pretty sure I read something similar before. Probably from Benedict Evans or somewhere else. I think the most important issue from these email isn't the lack of Alternative App Store, IAP, or 70/30 split. It is that Apple Execs has Zero understanding of how other business works especially with respect to Internet or Software Services. They continue to think Netflix as a physical product ( As they often like to c…

For comparison Netflix spends about $1.2 Billion dollars per year on AWS (Amazon Web Services). Their total revenue last year was 27.5B. So that means that AWS fees account for 4.3% of Netflix's revenue. AWS is streaming video, operating hundreds of edge location CDN locations, and everything else running on expensive server infrastructure. AWS has real serious costs with offering that service, to the point that Netf…

AWS does not stream video for Netflix. Netflix runs its own edge caches.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#227

Post by cortesoft » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 1:51 AM UTC

jacurtis wrote: post #145

ksec wrote: post #83

I am pretty sure I read something similar before. Probably from Benedict Evans or somewhere else. I think the most important issue from these email isn't the lack of Alternative App Store, IAP, or 70/30 split. It is that Apple Execs has Zero understanding of how other business works especially with respect to Internet or Software Services. They continue to think Netflix as a physical product ( As they often like to c…

For comparison Netflix spends about $1.2 Billion dollars per year on AWS (Amazon Web Services). Their total revenue last year was 27.5B. So that means that AWS fees account for 4.3% of Netflix's revenue. AWS is streaming video, operating hundreds of edge location CDN locations, and everything else running on expensive server infrastructure. AWS has real serious costs with offering that service, to the point that Netf…

AWS is NOT doing much of the streaming for Netflix. They do their own streaming. AWS is just for their management infrastructure.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#228

Post by chipotle_coyote » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 1:54 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #223

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I'm understanding the outcome of the Epic case that these documents came to light from, that kind of hardball would probably go pretty poorly. While Apple mostly won the case, between this and a case in South Korea, it's pretty clear they're going to be required to allow some kind of linking for external account management of "reader apps," which they classify Netflix as. Personally, I suspect if Apple had not gon…

Are you sure about game subscriptions? They don’t require Blizzard to use IAP for their MMO related apps. These could do a few in game actions, so there is some flexibility.

Are those Blizzard apps on iOS, or on the Mac? As far as I know, on iOS, you have to offer in-app purchases for subscriptions, unless you meet specific criteria -- you may be able to offer subscriptions outside IAP in addition, but you need to let people buy in the app. (On the Mac, though, none of this really applies.)

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#229

Post by EugeneG » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 2:09 AM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #186

jacurtis wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For comparison Netflix spends about $1.2 Billion dollars per year on AWS (Amazon Web Services). Their total revenue last year was 27.5B. So that means that AWS fees account for 4.3% of Netflix's revenue. AWS is streaming video, operating hundreds of edge location CDN locations, and everything else running on expensive server infrastructure. AWS has real serious costs with offering that service, to the point that Netf…

> Apple by comparison demands 15% which is 3.5x as much of a cut. Apple provides credit card processing, and approval into the App Store [...] . This isn't anywhere near the value that AWS provides, despite demanding a much higher premium. It's access to an extremely valuable demographics. Everyone ships on the App Store first because that's where paying customers and high value users are. All that AWS infrastructure…

Correct. You can go to AWS, Azure, GCP, IBM, host yourself, others, if you want cloud infrastructure. It's more or less commoditized.

On the other hand, if you want access thousands of customers who are willing to pay for and use your product ... well that's tough. And it's expensive. The real value is getting exposure to people who will pay real money. Value isn't equal to technical difficulty. That's why Google Ads are pricy, and that's why ads in a niche industry magazine targeting a very specific demographic can be even more expensive.

Re: Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)

#230

Post by makeitdouble » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 2:10 AM UTC

netcan wrote: post #124

emsy wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said it's naive but didn't actually present a reasonable alternative.

Sorry. Poor choice of words. Alternative to what? A law that says apple must allow alternative App Stores? I'm ok with that, and it might be useful to some people. I just don't think it will affect the market much. The App Store "market" is not going to become a competitive market with a quick fix like that. Any solution that does make it a competitive market also tanks the business model. 30% to deliver an app is ma…

> I just don't think it will affect the market much.

In a weird way, I think Apple and Google proved it would have significant impact, at least enough for them to put sizable effort in stopping it from happening.

Otherwise Apple wouldn't be fighting tooth and nails to keep it at bay. Google also went pretty great length, through bundled contracts, backroom deals and scaremongering to dissuade partners and users from choosing the alternative means that are available.

From the "follow the money" perspective, it seems there's hope in that corner.