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We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

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Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#221
post #156
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PG, what probability would you assign to the propositions "This time things are different" (empirically: the jobs won't come back 5 years from now) vs. "This time things are not different" (empirically: the jobs will come back 5 years from now)? Warning, if your probabilities are extreme enough, someone might want to bet you on it. Presuming things are different, I see five obvious answers to the original question (a…

6) The educational level (or mean cognitive ability) of the US population has been decreasing just as the cognitive thresholds for gainful employment are steadily increasing. You'd say education if you were on the left and might say cognition if you were on the right. Someone should plot the time series of BLS occupational statistics, with the minimum required education/IQ levels for each job. On the one hand the IQ…

Environment plays a huge role in the development and maintenance of IQ. And socioeconomic status (SES) can greatly affect the conduciveness of a child's environment to fostering IQ development. Accordingly, since more and more children are being born into low-SES households, it isn't surprising to see average IQ scores in decline.

Consider the following tidbit from the most recent national census: 50% of all babies born in the country right now are born into low-SES households (as defined as households dependent on governmental assistance, like food stamps). Forty-one percent of all babies born in the country are born to unmarried mothers (single-mother households being highly correlated with low SES).

The conclusion isn't that our generations are getting dumber, per se; it's that our generations are being born into poorer and poorer households. And the deck is pretty significantly stacked against someone born into a low-SES household.

Now, there's debate about causality in all of this, i.e., whether the existing population is actually getting poorer, or whether the poor are simply outbreeding the well-off. Based on census data, it seems to be a little of column A, and perhaps a bit more of column B. Either way, the younger generations are starting off on worse footing. And that leads to lower IQ scores and decreased future prospects.

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#222
post #24

"Our new economy is shrinking because technology leads to efficiency over growth." Anyone who wants to make the claim that technology is net killing jobs has to be prepared to answer the question: why now? Technology has been killing (but not net killing) jobs for centuries. It's possible that technology could start to net kill jobs. But why now, when it hasn't in the past?

The Great Stagnation - http://www.amazon.com/Great-Stagnation-Low-Hanging-Eventuall...

We've picked all the low hanging fruit - in technology and resources.

Our cars haven't really change much in 100 years. Same basic engine, just added computers (we did that in the _1970'_).

We're only incrementally improving technology (cars with navigation).

Our current innovations (Twitter, FB, Google) don't produce many jobs and in fact reduce number of jobs. People will spend the night on FB vs going out to dinner, a movie, etc. You don't need to go out to cure boredom/socialize.

Also, Social websites don't produce much commercial activity (compared to say the automakers building Detroit into a first tier city in the last century).

We're patenting one click check outs, but we haven't found a good (economical at scale) replacement for the major components of our economy - e.g. the internal combustion engine and fossil fuels.

The US has has an abundance of cheap land an resources PLUS the country was lucky enough to grow up in the industrial revolution when technical innovation was relatively easy and world changing (compared to now where it's much more incremental).

We're going to stagnate until someone (US,Chinese,Indian,other) makes some big leaps in alternative energy and other advanced technology.

Web apps aren't going fix our economic problems (however useful they are).

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#223
post #24

"Our new economy is shrinking because technology leads to efficiency over growth." Anyone who wants to make the claim that technology is net killing jobs has to be prepared to answer the question: why now? Technology has been killing (but not net killing) jobs for centuries. It's possible that technology could start to net kill jobs. But why now, when it hasn't in the past?

The only transformation comparable to the present phenomenon would be the migration from rural (farming) to urban factory settings that accumulated full force about a century ago. And it was a period that was marked with great tribulations and social and culture shattering apart -- immigrant labor, worker rights, great depression, altering of government social contract (i.e., New Deal), etc.…

The current technology revolution is even more overarching -- yes, there are new jobs being created, but at a fraction of the existing job base. This is not just a "claim" -- it's verifiable fact that can be easily concluded by perusing corporate employment ranks (GM used to employ nearly 1M workers -- contrast that to a modern internet company or even modern corporation which have been diminishing in employment ranks since the 90s). Review the government Labor department jobs reports -- most of the jobs created (outside of health care) are the kinds of jobs easily replaced by robotics / automation. The only damper that prevents a greater rate of transformation is the inexhaustible supply of cheap labor -- the presence of a humans willing to work at fraction of another, a seemingly bottomless pool. Might not be relevant for skilled jobs (though it is, at a lesser degree -- non immigrant visa workers supplanting American programmers for instance -- note that I am not making a case against immigration, just that immigration does have an economic effect on native workers).

See [Robotic Nation](http://www.marshallbrain.com/robotic-nation.htm) for a good summation of this -- yes, productivity and efficiency rise at an aggregate level, but the benefits do not accrue equally to all.

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#224
post #24

"Our new economy is shrinking because technology leads to efficiency over growth." Anyone who wants to make the claim that technology is net killing jobs has to be prepared to answer the question: why now? Technology has been killing (but not net killing) jobs for centuries. It's possible that technology could start to net kill jobs. But why now, when it hasn't in the past?

To talk about jobs lost, there were 4 million farm horses in Briton before the industrial revolution, and then over a period of 25 years in the nineteenth century, that population dropped to under a million.

Ford, and every other company, ran a 48 hour work week in the united states until Ford decided his factories were efficient enough that he could hire more people, pay everyone the same for 8 hours less labor, and thus sell more cars. Most every industry followed.

Now we've nearly a tenth of the workforce unemployed, but the story people tend to ignore is the actual hours of employment demanded per capita. The far scarier story than the United states unemployment is its underemployment, where people are willing to work but only get a few hours. Employers want to employ more people...but they can't fill more labor-hours. They can split those hours up, and because of that, a lot of the job loss is hidden.

Does anyone know of any other animals losing their jobs to robots?

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference between today, and the past is the rate of change, and the barrier of entry for a displaced worker to move. The industrial revolution happened over decades, but the digital revolution happened in just a few years. People are being displaced first by 3rd world countries, and second by machines which is faster than they may be prepared to deal with. Additionally they may not be capable of making…

> but the digital revolution happened in just a few years Going to have to disagree on that one. I recall twenty-some years ago, the death of manufacturing due to robotics was a hot debate and something discussed all over mainstream media. The warnings were sent loud and clear. Which always leaves me with concern. Why did the people in manufacturing not take the time to retool their skills over the past two decades w…

fair enough

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#227
post #182
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PG, what probability would you assign to the propositions "This time things are different" (empirically: the jobs won't come back 5 years from now) vs. "This time things are not different" (empirically: the jobs will come back 5 years from now)? Warning, if your probabilities are extreme enough, someone might want to bet you on it. Presuming things are different, I see five obvious answers to the original question (a…

There will always be plenty of jobs: http://books.google.com/books?id=ErEXMCudMZ4C&lpg=PA77&#... If we run out of jobs, people will start wearing coats made of auditable solved captchas or something, just to prove that they commanded more human labor than the next guy.

Some people may, but especially in this specific example, there's a large societal force that would positivley squash such behavior. We call it 'fashion' (which is actually quite often linked to inbuilt, brain-hardware based ideas about aesthetics that we can't change)

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The corollary here is quite interesting: if we imagine this extending quite a ways into the future, we might ask what sort of society we'd like to live in far in the future, where more and more jobs are lost because technology makes them pointless for humans to do. Say only 10% of humans had any skill whatsoever that would provide value that could not be more cheaply obtained by deploying technology. Say it got furth…

"an open source program exists that will read a plain language spec and spit out a good approximation of the same code you would have written" And who will write the spec? And why will it be any easier to write the spec than the program? "Plain language" is a misnomer. Idealistic people try to write legal contracts in plain language, but it doesn't work.

And who will write the spec? And why will it be any easier to write the spec than the program?

Sure, there will be people at the top of the command hierarchy dictating what needs are being met. That doesn't mean that spec-writing jobs will provide gainful employment for as many people as are employed fulfilling specs these days.

As for why it will be any easier to write the spec than the program, it already is. "Plain language" is exactly how people spec things out all the time these days, it serves me quite well when I'm getting work assignments ("The Fizzle button is making the back end Furble on Tuesday nights, fix it!", or "Add a coupon code field to our order page and an administration tab to add codes to the database - just make sure the same code can't be used more than once").

Idealistic people try to write legal contracts in plain language, but it doesn't work.

People tell their lawyers in plain everyday language what they care about achieving with a legal contract, and the lawyers fill in the blanks based on what they know. Similarly, normal people tell their programmers what they care about achieving, the programmers fill in the blanks. Sure, we can't automate that filling-in-the-blanks super well yet, and yes, there often has to be some back and forth to figure out what the person really wants (this is, IMO, on of the most important things missing in a lot of machine learning approaches, as human thought - especially language processing - involves a lot of feedback between systems and backtracking), but to me it's not hard at all to imagine all of that being extremely successfully automated once we have thirty years more NLP research under our belts and laptop computers that would put the most expensive Hadoop cluster you could construct today to shame...

Then again, I'm one of the weirdos that thinks that the "problem" of intelligence can be solved by a much less sophisticated algorithm than the one that our brains implement, under the theory that typically evolution only ever seems to do one thing well: create highly complex solutions to medium difficulty problems.

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#229
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree it's a long-term improvement, but if "some workers could never find a job again" happens to the majority all at once, they aren't going to quietly starve.

Anyone who is willing and able to transition to another way of earning a living, will. The majority of workers being replaced are not unwilling to find a new way earn a living, it's only the very old and the very stubborn that will have a difficult time finding their career 2.0

But earning a living doing what? I think that's why we're all having this conversation. If I got laid off today because someone finally wrote the ultimate software development AI, I have no idea what I would do instead. This seems to be one of the only career paths left with substantial unmet demand momentarily sheltering me from the Iron Law of Wages, and I lucked out in being obsessed with it.

Re: We’re not going to have a jobless recovery. We’re going to have a jobless future

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The corollary here is quite interesting: if we imagine this extending quite a ways into the future, we might ask what sort of society we'd like to live in far in the future, where more and more jobs are lost because technology makes them pointless for humans to do. Say only 10% of humans had any skill whatsoever that would provide value that could not be more cheaply obtained by deploying technology. Say it got furth…

"an open source program exists that will read a plain language spec and spit out a good approximation of the same code you would have written" And who will write the spec? And why will it be any easier to write the spec than the program? "Plain language" is a misnomer. Idealistic people try to write legal contracts in plain language, but it doesn't work.

Is this an argument claiming something can't ever happen, not because its impossible, but because its -bloody hard-?

That's a ridiculous argument...and remember, the example was ridiculous, talking about a world where only 10% of people had jobs: People would build -very difficult- things to find employment. (incidentally, we're all of us doing harder(cognitively) things than our ancestors to find employment today.)

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