Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit • Hacker News Board

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#221

Post by plutonorm » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

e4325f wrote: post #163

plutonorm wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very very hard to do if you want to go from software engineer to manager. Almost impossible - I have tried sending out hundreds of resumes over periods of years. You need to be promoted internally - but that is impossible unless you know someone. The internal job postings are a sham. I absolutely HATE software development but have been stuck in this role for 15 years and 5 years since I genuinely started loat…

7 companies in 15 years is a lot of moving around, maybe this has something to do with it?

I went contracting after the last permanent position turned out to be another dead end. Now I've given up and just work enough to pay the bills so I can avoid programming as much as possible.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#222

Post by plutonorm » Sat, Sep 04, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #181

pedrosorio wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this a UK thing? I think I’ve read this before on HN, “getting promoted from software engineer to manager is hard”. It seems to be a cultural thing. In the US, the manager is not seen as “superior” necessarily and many people actively do not want to be promoted (and a bunch of kids pouring into the field every year) so getting a management position is not particularly hard, even if you’re under 30.

I'm in the UK and at you wouldn't have any issue where I work(big AAA games publisher) - very very very few people want to be managers, so if someone expressed interest in managing they'd be given all training and support to make that happen, probably would get them promoted within a year or less. In fact I'd say that with some seniority under your belt you have to start actively avoiding management roles if you don'…

I don't believe it - have you seen it happen? If someone actually tries to follow that path, they get managed out rather than promoted, I bet you.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#223

Post by schwartzworld » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 12:14 AM UTC

bthallplz wrote: post #202

btown wrote: post #89

Required reading for every technical leader: https://randsinrepose.com/archives/shields-down/ > Resignations happen in a moment, and it’s not when you declare, “I’m resigning.” The moment happened a long time ago when you received a random email from a good friend who asked, “I know you’re really happy with your current gig because you’ve been raving about it for a year, but would you like to come visit Our Company?…

Oof, from just reading this I felt my shield start to drop. I wonder how much the present work-from-home situation has insulated people from this, as people can't just be invited to check out a company when the company is remote.

I changed jobs during the pandemic. Without the gloss of the office with free snacks and cool techie coworkers, I couldn't stay focused on the turds I was being asked to polish and repolish. It was the easiest job decision I ever made.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#224

Post by deeviant » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 12:32 AM UTC

bdowling wrote: post #210

deeviant wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The far more common scenario (At least at the companies I have worked at) is that an external applicant is desired but because US laws require a posting, one is made, even though that posting is there only to comply with the law and the company is basically already in the process of hiring the external candidate.

> because US laws require a posting US law does not generally require a job posting before hiring an employee. There are exceptions, however, including government employers, some government contractors, and employment of foreign nationals (e.g., H1-B visa workers).

I was definitely talking about these cases and they are very common.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#225

Post by bartread » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 11:02 AM UTC

Kunigaikstis wrote: post #213

bartread wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is giving me flashbacks. Years ago I applied for a C-level position at a company I worked for, somewhat to my surprise sailed through the interview process, and was officially offered the job. A few days later the CEO stopped by for a chat and told me they weren't going to offer me the job. He seemed surprised when I told him I'd already been offered it despite that everyone involved in the process had met and a…

Sorry to hear about your unfortunate experience. I bet everyone would get shaken up after getting an opportunity like that taken away, AFTER it was already confirmed that you're getting it. One thing I'd like to touch upon is you saying that it cost you 5-7 years of your career. Is that really the case, though? Hear me out. I've been employed in a couple of workplaces where I've had similar experiences: employer dang…

> One thing I'd like to touch upon is you saying that it cost you 5-7 years of your career. Is that really the case, though?

My decision not to sue certainly was. Note: my decision. I'm taking responsibility, not blaming the company. I'm not going to get into more detail simply because I've gone over it quite enough for this decade in my previous post.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#226

Post by gambiting » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 1:12 PM UTC

plutonorm wrote: post #222

gambiting wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the UK and at you wouldn't have any issue where I work(big AAA games publisher) - very very very few people want to be managers, so if someone expressed interest in managing they'd be given all training and support to make that happen, probably would get them promoted within a year or less. In fact I'd say that with some seniority under your belt you have to start actively avoiding management roles if you don'…

I don't believe it - have you seen it happen? If someone actually tries to follow that path, they get managed out rather than promoted, I bet you.

>>I don't believe it - have you seen it happen

Yes, I have gone exactly through this myself, and now that I'm a manager I've helped several people become managers themselves, and it always starts with people expressing interest in the path. It's generally very encouraged where I work.

>>get managed out rather than promoted, I bet you.

That's a pretty wild bet to make, given that you know, I'm actually talking from experience.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#227

Post by BeFlatXIII » Sun, Sep 05, 2021, 7:13 PM UTC

spfzero wrote: post #188

BeFlatXIII wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loyalty, obviously. Competition means focusing on competing with other employees and not focusing on the company's goals.

Loyalty means hiding miss-steps, cronyism, and incentive to make your boss look good no matter what. That is orthogonal to the company's goals.

Competition means hiding miss-steps, sandbagging your co-workers, and optimizing for looking good. These are also orthogonal to the company's goals.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#228

Post by PaulHoule » Mon, Sep 06, 2021, 1:29 PM UTC

abalashov wrote: post #108

bdowling wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one of the positions was actually only posted for someone internally This is extremely common. A company can't allow for nepotism or favoritism, so it requires a public posting for any open position. Qualified external applicants see the posting and apply. The managers hire the internal candidate they wanted to hire anyway. It's all a huge waste of everyone's time. I'd bet that a large percentage of job postings ar…

It's even more fun in public institutions, e.g. universities, where a higher amount of perfunctory humouring of external candidates is required in order to create a somewhat more convincing appearance of an equitable search.

Sometimes that ‘favored’ person has done a lot of work to create the opportunity that they are going to fill.

(For instance that person might have done a lot of work to get a grant, or convince higher ups to make money available.)

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#229

Post by aejnsn » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 3:07 AM UTC

a3n wrote: post #174

aejnsn wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It happened to me too a few years back. A posting cropped up with the company hiring for two positions right above mine to fill out direction needs, I was a technical lead already. I wanted the position, because I was already filling the role they were hiring for. I was shut down right when I inquired, and told that the company wanted some outside talent. Wow okay, even though my performance reviews were dazzling. So…

> So too bad, had a better offer to advance elsewhere and their interest in me was clear. "Their interest in me was clear." Exactly this. Enlightened and effective leadership would pair a "not this time" response with a series of career development meetings, resulting in a tailored path for advancement; not as detailed as "this job, then that job, then that," but informed enough to show the candidate that they were h…

Thanks! I really wish they would have put me through training. If I recall correctly they did do a special mid-year for me. That was because of the VP, who knew I was frustrated about the position and HR. That same VP got tired of the rest of the company’s crap, he threw in the towel, and that started the reorganization/leadership vacuum. I am glad I had a couple other options. The company lost a couple dozen good technologists in the span of the following year just because of their horrible organizational management.

Re: Rejected internal job applicants are twice as likely to quit

#230

Post by arcticbull » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 6:32 AM UTC

maerF0x0 wrote: post #197

arcticbull wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't folks unhappy at their current roles likely to seek other roles internally before looking externally? It sounds like they are more likely to (a) already be unhappy (b) become extra unhappy when a transfer is denied and (c) that leads to them setting off into the sunset. I suspect that these aren't the folks companies want to keep in the first place. On average of course, there will be exceptions. Not trying to…

> I suspect that these aren't the folks companies want to keep in the first place. Why not?

Apologies for the delayed response. My thought process at the time was that if they were the kind of folks the company wanted to keep they would have been able to make the transfer. I could be wrong.