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American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

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Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take New York City (which I'm familiar with, but it's likely the story is similar in many other places): - each public school has the same budget per student. There is no "reduced education funding" for schools in district X vs district Y, or for any school, because the budget per student is equal. Each school's budget is public, and published on the web. - favoring religious teaching: at least at the school my kids…

> Here's a sample math question ... This is supposed to be a "challenging" problem? It seems quite obvious to me: we simply cannot answer the question as given, because we aren't told how many in the Centerville population are classed as 'both male and female', or 'neither male nor female'.

Hahahaha. Thanks for the lough.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#222

It's a weird article. I think this idea of 'Russian math' is very nebulous, and is probably used as marketing tool nowadays by some schools abroad. I have graduated from one of the top physics/maths high schools in Russia, and yes we had great math education there, but that was an outlier. Outside a handful of schools the math education is pretty dismal. And even in the good math schools there are different ways of t…

Wait, are you a fellow 57er? I thought there might be quite a lot of math school alumni on HN.

No, I'm from 'Vtoraia Shkola'. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if there is a bias towards russian math school alumni here.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#223
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Trying out numbers" seems like the simpler approach to me. You have to multiply four consecutive numbers to get 1680. One of them must be 7 (since 7 divides 1680), one must be 5 or 10 for the same reason. That leaves only 3 possibilities, and you only have to check the middle one (5 x 6 x 7 x 8) since if the result too big or too small, you'll know which of the other two it is. OK - you weren't guaranteed the soluti…

Following the procedure taught in class (and I'm quite sure they didn't teach "make a guess") is safer. When you show the correct procedure and fumble say, and addition, near the end, you'll still get almost full points. If you go off-road and get the wrong answer, it's up to how much the teacher likes you.

This doesn't line up with all the other problems, which reward having some insight as well as the concrete algebra/arithmetic skills to finish it out.

If anything, your approach sounds more like what's expected in American schools: either you have been taught a foolproof way to solve problems matching Pattern X, or you stare slack jawed at the question paper thinking "I must have been absent the day they covered this question pattern". Exactly the opposite of the kind of thinking described in the article.

Besides, as in another comment of mine on this page, there is no generic method your teacher could have taught you here that always works. (If you think so, please set the right hand side to 1681 and solve that version...). The principal method I was taught for solving cubics was to make a guess. Numerical methods came later.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sample problem for K-1 [1]: "Jane fills a bag with three types of chips. There are 3-point, 4-point and 7- point chips. Jane picks 3 chips worth 15 points. Which chips did she pick?" Sample problem for grades 5-6 [2]: "Pinocchio drank half a cup of black coffee. He then filled the cup back up with milk and drank one third of the mixture. Again he filled the cup to the top with milk, drank one sixth of the mixture and…

I don't like the second question. Probably the kid is supposed to see the 'trick' :he drank a full cup of coffee since he didn't refill coffee and drank all. He added 1/2, 1/3 and 1/6 of a cup of milk and drank it all, so (3+2+1)/6=1. He drank the same amount of coffee and milk. I think it is ok as a brain teaser, but there will probably be one kid in the class to see it and all the other kids feel dumb or whatever.…

K-1 means Kindergarten and 1st grade, so 5 year olds and 6 year olds. In the US earlier grades than that are called PK-3 (pre-Kindergarten and 3 year old) and PK-4. I don't think RSM has classes for these levels.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sample problem for K-1 [1]: "Jane fills a bag with three types of chips. There are 3-point, 4-point and 7- point chips. Jane picks 3 chips worth 15 points. Which chips did she pick?" Sample problem for grades 5-6 [2]: "Pinocchio drank half a cup of black coffee. He then filled the cup back up with milk and drank one third of the mixture. Again he filled the cup to the top with milk, drank one sixth of the mixture and…

I don't like the second question. Probably the kid is supposed to see the 'trick' :he drank a full cup of coffee since he didn't refill coffee and drank all. He added 1/2, 1/3 and 1/6 of a cup of milk and drank it all, so (3+2+1)/6=1. He drank the same amount of coffee and milk. I think it is ok as a brain teaser, but there will probably be one kid in the class to see it and all the other kids feel dumb or whatever.…

> Edit: this might make the kids think you need some 'magical' insights to do math and if they don't see it they are not apt for it, while the opposite might be true.

That's a valid point. However, what's the opposite to having insights? Is that following routines and/or exhaustively exploring the entire problem space (which the first problem in the GP comment seems to teach)?

Teaching those might have higher pedagogical value than conditioning children to find insights (as - at least at first sight - the increase in skill in those is more directly linked to the effort the child invests in learning) However, the von Neumann story in your sibling comment suggests that some people (and so, some children in the class) will perform routines faster than the other children no matter what. Seeing a "shortcut" solution gives a chance to those who are slower at routines to arrive at a solution fast, too.

Moreover, a lot of real-world problems (in academia as well as in business - from my limited experience in both) are exercises in pattern matching and finding shortcuts rather than in an exhaustive exploration of the problem space - and helping children to collect an arsenal of tricks (and more importantly, teaching them to look for insights and patterns by giving them multiple trick-based problems over the years) prepares them to handle those real-world problems.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#227
I wonder what he older math-education in german schools is like, probably also more hard-core. After elementary school, germany has a three tracks Gymnasium, Realschule und Hauptschule. A Gymnasium prepares one for university and is still well regarded and its final tests, the Abitur, still carries a prestige. Looking back (I attended a Gymnasium), I think the quality of the education was quite high, especially in my english lessons and the social subjects. If the goal of the school was to produce good citizens capable of actively participating in a democracy and forming their own opinion, then it did it very well. Especially later, we had quite a few interesting, adult discussions with engaged teachers about various topics in history, society, art etc. So I think that the quality of my gymnasium was quite high and it really showed in subjects where capable teachers alone can make quite the difference.

But the gymnasiums should also prepare those capable for university, be more rigorous, and I think there's the problem. The division doesn't work anymore. Everybody wants their children to go to the gymnasium, because everybody has to study at the university. Even when they have no interest whatsoever in science and just want to work as a coder. Also, attending a Gymnasium can't be prestigious if everybody is doing it. I remember quite a few children struggling but getting pushed through by their parents because a Realschule is simply not an option. I was also struggling, but more because I just didn't care and there weren't really any consequences. I still passed each class. But a more rigorous math education would, I think, result in a lot of the children failing the gymnasium and a lot of angry parents who see the future of their children and their parental success in turmoil. So the Gymnasium really turned into a one-size-fits-all kind of education and I strongly suspect that especially in math (or physics) that leads to the lowest common denominator. So now I wonder what the math education was like when only few could attend the gymnasium, i suspect way more rigorous.

Is it similar in other countries?

By the way, it's totally different at the university level. The german university doesn't feel responsible for your personal success, you have to earn it. If you fail, you fail and the standard can be quite high. I also don't really see a lowering of standards in the "core" degrees, for the first big math exams I prepared myself by practicing with old ones going back into the 80s/90s. They were as difficult as the new ones. A lot of students failing out of the subjects they have chosen (can be as much as 2/3rds) just choose easier majors, for example a business-computer science combination because they have less math classes. A lot of the students that started studying with me ended up switching majors because of the more rigorous computer-science and math-classes (I think roughly 50%).

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#228
post #36
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since it was a communist country, everyone had the same conditions (crappy), and everyone had the same fricking clothes (only two clothing factories on the whole country), and same teachers (and no private schooling allowed), and we had the same books, and no calculators. And it is clear, if all conditions are equal, still people are not born equal. Some kids are just smarter than others, and some are just dummies, o…

Do you have data or anecdata on the effect of repeating an entire year? In many modern Western schools that'd be frowned upon as punitive and as likely to provoke a "well screw YOU!" response or ingrain "I must really be stupid" mindset.

My father repeated a year, bounced back from it and became a teacher later in life.

But usually it did not happen that often. When it did happen, it usually meant someone will change schools to a less demanding one (if in high school). So for example you may leave a gymnasium and go to a school for mechanics.

In elementary school it did not happen except for serious disciplinary problems. People with mental problems were able to have special programmes that tailored to their needs, so this did not result in repeating a year.

Teachers did not really like the idea of having someone repeat a year, so if you had a decent attitude you could get a passing grade but you had to put in the effort. This "effort" part is what is in my opinion biggest different, Eastern Europe schooling required you to put in a lot of work, if you were talented you didn't need to use so much time, but if you weren't natural at math, you had to put in plenty of hours to get decent grades. Problems usually were not of the sort that can't be learned through "brute force".

I've done some teaching on the side and when I was teaching a guy in a "US" school for children of diplomats, difference was that their problems were usually much more freeform and required deeper understanding but once understood, used primitive math or physics methods. Our normal schooling was different, it used advanced math or physics but the problems were often times many variants of the same problem (which allowed for brute force learning). Honestly I think that it would be the best to have both, as many of my fellow students did not really understand the material we studied but they could brute force it.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Serbian and moved to the UK when I was 10. A lot of this is a bit hazy now, but I really clearly recall my bewilderment during the first class-wide 'mental arithmetic' tests in year 5 where I thought the whole class was playing a prank on me. In Serbia I remembered doing quadratics and even touching on differentiation in the afterschool classes, but over here in the UK they were expecting me to take 20 seconds to…

As a Brit, I was never any good at mental math at school, I still cannot do that hardest one without a calculator. But later on, I swam like a fish in water in geometry, trig, logic and loved algebra and moved from the last of my year to one of the top. I was doing integration etc a good two years before it was being taught in the higher classes. These skills are good for programming and computers. There was a limit;…

I still have a hard time in mental arithmetics. During my school days, this is one of the things which had instilled the "math phobia" in me. I never really took an interest in math, until I started doing competitive programming in college. I had to literally build a new understanding of division, multiplication, modulus, etc., it's difficult to explain. But I feel really ashamed in admitting that I still suck at math, probably because I just hated it during school days and no one was there to guide me. I don't really like blaming things on others, but I am not sure what else I could've done to learn math.

Re: American parents are sending their kids to 'Russian math' (2017)

#230

My college had a decent-sized contingent of Bulgarian & Romanian international students. The difference in their math abilities upon entry was striking. While most of my American-born classmates struggled in discrete math, linear algebra, and vector calc, my Bulgarian friend was like "I learned this when I was 9." They were frequently tapped as TAs by the professors, because they understood the material on a level th…

I'm Serbian and moved to the UK when I was 10. A lot of this is a bit hazy now, but I really clearly recall my bewilderment during the first class-wide 'mental arithmetic' tests in year 5 where I thought the whole class was playing a prank on me. In Serbia I remembered doing quadratics and even touching on differentiation in the afterschool classes, but over here in the UK they were expecting me to take 20 seconds to…

I went to a British university, CS course, at the age of 19, having completed my education in Poland. I had a very similar experience(except no one cared whether you wrote x or .) - basically at university it was like going back 5-10 years in terms of maths level. We were already doing advanced calculus in Poland in my last year at school(and being constantly told that we have to know it well or no one at university will explain it to us), and then at the UK university I went to we spent the first year just going through extremely simple algebra. It honestly felt like I was doing something wrong.
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