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For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

blog.perrysun.com

221–230 of 623 posts

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#221

Nope, Apple's Safari is the last stand (given it's market share, FF is miniscule) from the web standards becoming whatever Google likes... It's not Safari which is outdated, it's standards that move too fast and come ad-hoc to Google's tastes. And it's not even about the web anymore, it's all kinds of crap to make the browser a slower, duplicate of native functionality, app platform.

How do you explain feature parities? like lack of webworkers on Safari. Its been there for years but they have some lame reason like "It's too complicated to implement".

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#222
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safari is still the best mobile web browser in terms of performance and usability, and I'm using Firefox on Android, it's great, but Safari is the fastest.

Considering there are no other browsers on iOS to compare to, Safari is obviously the fastest by default.

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Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#223
The indexDB fiasco is a good example of negative developer sentiment towards Safari.

Firefox shipped support in 2011, with Chrome following suite a year later.

It's mid 2021, and the Safari implementation is still critically broken.

EDIT: It looks like the bug has been patched in developer preview, so hey progress +1.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, pretty sure it's only one reason, money. If they made Safari on iOS actually good (re: PWA notification support), it would burn into their App store profits.

What sort of apps are in the intersection of being performant enough to be written in JavaScript and also generate lots of in-app purchase revenue (which is typically recurring revenue)? Certainly not most games, which are the biggest money-spinners, and also not pro camera apps or video editing apps. Video streaming apps (eg. Netflix / YouTube Premium) come to mind, but they don't rely too much on in app purchase I…

I use a Home Assistant PWA that I'm quite happy with. No need to install native code that has access to everything on my device when I can interface with it from a browser sandbox. I also regularly use a local weather app that has an app version, stuffed with tracking, and a PWA version that gets protected against by my browsers privacy settings.

There is also a very interesting project for programming certain ESP32 boards using WebSerial for easy to use home automation. You import some yaml and flash an ESP32 board without ever even installing the Arduino SDK. I think the problem is they we've reversed the question here. Why on earth should it even be acceptable that websites need an app for something as basic as watching videos, reading the news or checking the weather. Youtube and Netflix have no need for a native application if the developers actually cared about performance of their website. Especially Netflix should just work, because their web app also needs to work on ancient smart TVs and therefore has strict performance requirements.

Dating apps where the most engaging thing you do is swipe in a direction and type into a basic chat screen also have no need for native code. There's a good reason Tinder works just fine as a PWA on every platform other than iOS.

Those "free for all" dating apps do exist and have always existed. If they're illegal or immoral it's not up to Apple to pass judgement, that's what the legal system is for. I, for one, do not accept the tech overlords as my government.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#225

Regarding PWA support, I often read you can use PWAs offline. I can not imagine a Website that I would want offline. Can someone please give me an useful example of such an offline Website?

DevDocs.io is a very useful offline app. Download your desired documentation in advance, and continue coding when your net is out.

Apps I'd like to see are Pixlr and RegExr. Any utility like that makes a good PWA candidate.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#226

I speak as a non-developer but as someone who makes their living with a computer: From my perspective, Apple's conservative attitude is a positive. There are all sorts of web techs that enable the possibility of increased tracking, of websites being generally malicious, of all sorts of things that I don't want. Historically Apple has been on my side and I will continue to appreciate that until demonstrated otherwise.

That's because of countless hours wasted by developers behind the scene to write workarounds, polyfills etc to support Safari.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What sort of apps are in the intersection of being performant enough to be written in JavaScript and also generate lots of in-app purchase revenue (which is typically recurring revenue)? Or maybe it's just selection bias - we don't see these types of apps because the experience is so fundamentally broken, noone ever bothers to develop them.

We'd see at least one of them on the App Store, then. 30% revenue share is a lot (and I hope Congress bans the anti-steering provisions and apps can link you to their website to pay), but it doesn't kill entire categories of apps.

> 30% revenue share is a lot...but it doesn't kill entire categories of apps.

Personally Im not so optimistic. 30% is a huge chunk of revenue and is completely unworkable for anything that doesn't have a huge margin built-in.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#228
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then apple should focus on improving the APIs to be privacy safe (how they successfully do in their own APIs). But they are not. It is not about privacy. It is about revenue.

hen apple should focus on improving the APIs to be privacy safe (how they successfully do in their own APIs). If you follow some of the conversations on GitHub when a proposal comes up from Google, which I sometimes do, there’s no simple way to make some of these APIs private. And when Apple proposes ways to do so, Google balks at them because… their revenue is based on advertising that tracks users across the web. I…

I don't know why you think the market cap is relevant here. But Apple's net income in 2020 was about $60B. The total App Store revenue was about $64B, out of which Apple extracted $20B in rent.

Not all of that $20B was profit, but based on what we know about the economics of running such stores, it was about $15B of profit. That is 25% of all of Apple's profit in 2020.

Apple will do anything to protect that income stream. If the way to protect it is to cripple the web, well, you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#229
post #158
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way can PWAs be abused?

The Web Workers API allows your JS code to keep running in the background even when your site is not loaded in any tab. Sucking up battery life, tracking your IP, doing who knows what else. That does not excuse Apple’s cavalier attitude towards bugs, but many of the APIs they refuse to implement deserve to die, like WebUSB or Bluetooth access, because of the privacy or security risks of weakening the browser sandbox.…

WebUSB and Web Bluetooth are actually very useful in very specific circumstances. I've seen several internal projects use it to communicate with obscure proprietary hardware that would otherwise require my company (mostly a web dev shop) to rewrite or extend the code with a native component only a few people could maintain reliably.

For most people this stuff is unnecessary, which is why there's permission prompts to these APIs, bbut for certain use cases they're very convenient. Google made a tool that allows flashing firmware onto their Pixel devices directly from websites instead of requiring admin permissions to install some kind of one-off binary tool, for example. Then there's the ESPHome flasher which is very convenient.

ActiveX allowed for breaking out of the web sandbox and running native code, these new APIs don't. They allow more direct communication with devices, but only with permissions and even then with limitations.

If I want a website to communicate with a device, I'd prefer it if they'd stick to the web sandbox instead of requiring a native tool. These APIs help prevent an ActiveX world where everything needs an app that runs native code, with all security implications that comes with, and help people stick to the web sandbox.

Perhaps that's why Apple refuses to implement certain APIs, they make billions from the ActiveX world that has come out of the app store.

Re: For developers, Safari is crap and outdated

#230

Looks like almost everybody would be worse off if Firefox went away and looks like nobody gives a shit if it's going away in part due to uncompetitive behaviour on iOS and largely because they don't seem to have a handle on the situation, investing left and right and not focusing on the browser. Here's a thought, Mozilla does a lot of political campaigning, how about campaigning for open app stores and death to no ot…

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