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Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#221

Post by underscore_ku »

throwaway4good wrote: post #109
poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

What do you want the EU to do? Kick Hungary out? EU offers a lot to the Hungarian people in terms of travel, freedom of business, employment etc. In 10 years Orban likely will be gone. In the long run the liberal values of Europe will prevail.

they have parliamentary elections in 2022. i bet Orban will be out by then

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#222

Post by Dah00n »

xiphias2 wrote: post #3

Orban used EU money to take total control of the country (media, poor voters). If EU lets China come into Hungary, it will backfire for the whole EU in my opinion.

I don't know much about Hungary so could you provide a reason why it is bad "if EU lets China come into Hungary"? Unless it is because China Bad, then I'm not interested, but I'm hoping for something more interesting than that. Personally I would hate to see EU close in on itself and so it needs to align with outsiders. China seems just as good a partner as the other big markets to me.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#223

Post by goodpoint »

jeroenhd wrote: post #42
bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

People are tribal by nature. They will get into fights because their neighbour supports the "wrong" sports club, and you can extend that up to any level. Within a country there's city vs city, city vs countryside, and above country level there's EU vs US, or "the west" vs "the east". People group together with others that share certain cultural values. Ever since borders, passports and standard languages have been th…

> People are tribal by nature

This is "appeal to nature" nonsense. Tribalism, just like every other social behavior, can be learned and unlearned.

Imagine if someone was getting tribal along odd VS even apartment number or floor number. It would be seen as ridiculous just because it's not in line with the social construct indicating what to be tribal about.

> People group together with others that share certain cultural values.

By this logic, relocating across countries should be made illegal to prevent diluting culture. This would be ultranationalism.

> I don't feel culturally similar to many other European countries

Societies are not countries and are not people. We can be feel very disconnected from some societal values and yet find similar minded individuals in it.

> Grand unification of humanity is a good ideal, one we should work towards, but it's not something that will be possible within our lifetimes.

Citation needed. Humanity has never seen the level of culture and information sharing that is happening now.

For the first time in history some 15 years old girl in Vietnam can watch at a viral meme put on social media by an equally young boy from Canada. Practically for free and with no effort.

> Such political differences don't just disappear.

History shows otherwise. Big, unexpected grass-root social changes happen. Especially under the pressure from climate collapse and so on.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#224

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

> Nationalism is an ancient mentality

Not just nationalism, but tribalism.

That's why the US has such an appalling record of bias. Each new wave of immigrants (not to mention the ones that were here, to start with, and those that were dragged over, against their will) has been met with torrents of hatred, abuse, and state-sanctioned terror. In most cases, it had little to do with skin color, and everything to do with cultural differences.

When I lived in Africa, I saw tribalism writ large. It gets bad. If we think it's only in the developing world, then we simply need to look at what happened to Yugoslavia, after Tito died.

I think that tribalism is in our DNA, and it takes a real, concerted, conscious, effort to fight it. That's hard, humbling, work, and most folks aren't up for it.

Externally-imposed structure (Tito) works, but it's a temporary band-aid.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#225

Post by neel8986 »

pell wrote: post #205
zpeti wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word radicalized is also way overused. Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. But that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate concerns about illegal immigration that Hungarians might have. Just because Western european nations have decided they don't mind if they add 1-2% yearly to their populations of a culturally total…

>Orban is seen as hateful or radicalising because he is against illegal immigration. He has made a big marketing point about this. I'm not going to go into the topic of migration and the "legality" of it. But the reason Orban is considered "radical" by many is not because of his stance on immigration first and foremost but because he's been dismantling democratic institutions left and right, starting with NGOs, the m…

Looks so much similar to Modi in India. At some point we are all helpless in front of blatant rhetoric. We will destroy our institutions just for the hatred for "others"

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#226

Post by kristjank »

poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

True. But EU also repeatedly ignores a decent chunk of people that want a stable social state without LGBTQ agitprop and unlimited illegal immigration. I have a hunch that the western left wing would have much more support if they focused on the wellbeing of the common worker, not on the countless minorities. Instead the choice always seems to be between a reactionary right-wing degenerate and a hyper-progressive left-wing degenerate. And to think Americans call them communists. In communism most of the shit we see today from left and right politicians wouldn't fly at all.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#227

Post by joelbluminator »

cmmeur01 wrote: post #215
joelbluminator wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably not in your interest since you'd go to jail and the whole metaphor seems quite simplistic to me. Since you seem to be talking about ethics, not interests, If Israel supports Egypt's El-Sisi is that immoral? Yes he is a despot, but the opposition is worse. Same can be said about Israel's support to the Palestinian Authority. It's quite difficult to know what the right thing to do is. Israel wants good re…

They support who they can control, that’s it. Nothing to do with them thinking one is better for the citizens living under their selected rulers control. Israel doesn’t care about half the people within its borders. Saying they choose who to support based on how that person will treat their citizens is laughable.

> They support who they can control, that’s it.

Or they support who won't try to destroy them, see - I said it in a non demonizing way.

> Saying they choose who to support based on how that person will treat their citizens is laughable

I wasn't saying that. I was just saying, at least in the case of Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia (and also the Palestinian Authority), it's not clear at all that selling them tech/arms is immoral.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#228

Post by goodpoint »

inglor_cz wrote: post #123
Hokusai wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are tribal by nature. Maybe, but what "tribe" are you part of is completely fluid. Your tribe can be extremely inclusive or exclusive. > Grand unification of humanity is a good ideal, one we should work towards, but it's not something that will be possible within our lifetimes. And it is quite of inevitable as communication and travel becomes cheaper. > I don't want a European superstate because I disagree w…

"Maybe, but what "tribe" are you part of is completely fluid" There is a lot of friction when changing tribes. Especially if it means changing your religion, language and culture. Few people can make that jump. I would not call this "completely fluid".

On the contrary, studies clearly show that people are aligning themselves more and more with "tribes" that are based on a geographic area.

Cheap travel and social networks made it possible.

We are doing it right now on HN.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#229

Post by deregulateMed »

janjones wrote: post #193

Here is a technical report about the exploits: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2021/07/forensic-...

Holy shit, there's literally a dozen of Apple products exploited.

It's not a single "Apple music exploit", it's dozens of separate services. Music, messenger, safari, iOS, etc...

I never want to hear Apple cares about security again.

I could forgive 1 mistake, but this seems like negligence. (Don't put me down as a defender of MS or Android, but at least they don't use "Security" in their marketing)

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#230

Post by re-al »

"Pegasus takes advantage of so-called zero-day vulnerabilities of software running on mobile phones, meaning built-in flaws that not even developers and manufacturers are aware of."

Vulnerabilities, eh - 'flaws'?

Or backdoors there by design?

What's in a name?

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