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U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

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Re: U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

#221

Post by godelski »

baby wrote: post #132
ppeetteerr wrote: post #68

There is so much doubt in this comment section around the validity of the accusations. We have a number of countries putting forward the knowledge they have mutually agreed upon. What is shared is known to a high degree of certainty. Any details that are questionable would not have been shared prematurely.

Not to say I don’t believe that China is actively attacking networks and services (if they don’t then they’re lagging behind and it’s embarassing), but I can understand the skepticism of grand claims when the latest was that tiktok was impacting national security.

> when the latest was that tiktok was impacting national security.

Wait, it wasn't? I'm not sure why this is a controversial opinion. Social media has often been linked to information leakage. Geo tagging of photos was part of the proof that was used to show that Russia invaded Crimea. Similarly US soldiers have had their locations revealed when posting on Facebook/Twitter/Instagram. In fact if you're over seas and talking to your partner back home they generally have another soldier listening to the conversation. Given all this why is it surprising that a large social media platform that focuses on videos (which reveal more info), grabs a lot of data, and is connected to the US's largest geopolitical adversary is considered a threat?

Re: U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

#222

Post by throwaway4good »

wyuenho wrote: post #185
throwaway4good wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you. These are worth reading. Even though I am not sure how much of it would be able carry the burden of proof in a court. Similarly to the Russian hacking cases, these will never see an independent court meaning the prosecutor can politicize and speculate without limits.

They are not getting sent to the FISA court, that court only issues warrants. They are charged with conspiracy to commit economic espionage and conspiracy to commit computer fraud and are likely going to a federal district court.

This case will never go to court.

Re: U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

#224

Post by godelski »

dalbasal wrote: post #211
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #182

Entire free world: China is hacking us. Entire comment section: b-b-but the US.

...and both are relevant. China probably is "hacking us." US/NATO credibility is suspect.

That's not the problem. We shit on the US all day every day. There's also not a problem with this. The problem is that when we're talking about someone else it's being used as a defense. Honestly it doesn't even matter if the US is doing the same thing. If something is wrong it is wrong, no matter who does it. Responding to "China is hacking the US" with "But the US hacks China" doesn't accomplish anything except create arguments nor is it logically consistent because both can be bad. The "but they did it" implies the action is not bad in the first place and that a double standard is an excuse. The problem is that there is not a double standard. People are also critical of the US's use of hacking both nationally and globally. So if you're concerned with the US hacking people it is logically obvious that you'd also be concerned with China (or anyone else!) hacking people.

I'm tired of this argument because it just serves the propagandists. It eliminates a real conversation happening because we can't even start one because we don't even agree on a basic premise of that things can be judged independently. Comparisons can be great, but independent judgement/criticism is also necessary.

Re: U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

#225

Post by vxNsr »

chalst wrote: post #189
vxNsr wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don’t believe Tiktok is a national security threat you are hopelessly naive. MyFitnessPal, Strava, etc are threats to national security and they’re US based, but you think that Tiktok isn’t because someone you don’t like said it is? That’s playground logic.

Given the goals of the US, anything that weakens US hegemony can be regarded as a national security threat. Naturally, any internationally successful social media technology not under the control of US corporations counts. If you are not American, though, the TikTok drama has been one of the more darkly amusing spectacles.

India disagrees with you but ok.

Re: U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

#226

Post by godelski »

throwaway4good wrote: post #43
wyuenho wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently you haven't read it at all These activities can be linked to the hacker groups known as Advanced Persistent Threat 40 and Advanced Persistent Threat 31 and have been conducted from the territory of China for the purpose of intellectual property theft and espionage.

Which is quite different from saying it is being done by the Chinese government. Read the uk ditto for comparison.

> Which is quite different from saying it is being done by the Chinese government.

Is it meaningfully different? Let's suppose that they aren't nationally funded. If there's a large group of elite hackers in your country generating international ill will is it not also your responsibility to shut them down? To work with the government of the country that these rogue hackers are attacking to find them? Not doing so is akin endorsing the behavior.

And it can't be anything else honestly. They are spy organizations, which are intentionally created to be difficult to track back to the funding government. We've seen the US do this for decades and have plenty of declassified documents to support this. It would be surprising if Russia, China, Germany, Australia, Israel, or anyone else didn't also operate in a similar fashion. If the method is effective then it is effective. The fact that a group resides in another country does not have any bearing on the effectiveness of the method.

Re: U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

#229

Post by dalbasal »

godelski wrote: post #224
dalbasal wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and both are relevant. China probably is "hacking us." US/NATO credibility is suspect.

That's not the problem. We shit on the US all day every day. There's also not a problem with this. The problem is that when we're talking about someone else it's being used as a defense. Honestly it doesn't even matter if the US is doing the same thing. If something is wrong it is wrong, no matter who does it. Responding to "China is hacking the US" with "But the US hacks China" doesn't accomplish anything except cre…

What would you like to have discussed and/or judged independently?

I agree that a lot of the comments here are shitposting or making reactionary equivocations. Others though, are making valid points... which you may agree with, or not.

IMO, for example, the most important part of this to pay attention to is NATO. Cybersecurity & China seem to be the new focus of the alliance. To me, this seems like the most potentially impactful aspect.. and probably a key reason why this announcement was made in the way that it was made. IE, I think that what NATO do in the coming few years will make the history books, rather than Chinese cyberattacks. I may be wrong, but this isn't a disingenuous equivocation. It's just my judgement on this, at this point.

Re: U.S. and key allies accuse China of Microsoft Exchange cyberattacks

#230

Post by godelski »

compsciphd wrote: post #49
throwaway4good wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is quite different from saying it is being done by the Chinese government. Read the uk ditto for comparison.

Due to the level of control the Chinese government imposes on all the corporations within it, is it fair to say that such acts can't be done without the cooperation on some level of the govt? As opposed to many western countries where the companies might be patriotic, but they have minimal fear of taking on the government in general in the courts if they feel they are in the right. Perhaps Chinese companies have the…

> Due to the level of control the Chinese government imposes on all the corporations within it, is it fair to say that such acts can't be done without the cooperation on some level of the govt?

Honestly even without the government imposing so much control on corporations I believe it is fair to say that the acts can't be done without cooperation on some level of the government. If there's an elite group of hackers in your country attacking a country and generating ill will then a hands off approach is condoning the action. The only way to condemn the action is to work with said country to apprehend said hackers. But headlines aren't "US and China work together to apprehend rogue elite hacking group."

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