Building a vision of life without work (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#221

Post by yarcob » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

balfirevic wrote: post #194

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" Great insight that is worth repeating. One of my biggest problems with FIRE discussions is how much they reinforce the idea that retirement is a prerequisite for achieving happiness. This leads a lot of FIRE-minded people to double down…

> they might be better off scaling back to a sustainable 40hr/week job 40hr/week is the unsustainable part.

40h/week of work leaves very little time for household, kids, exercise, side projects, and relaxing.

I think 20h/week is a more reasonable target if you want to enjoy things beside work.

Of course it's okay to work 40h/week if you really want to, or even more, if you enjoy it, but you should really think hard about whether that's really what you want, or if it's just what your employer wants you to do.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#222

Post by dougmwne » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

sevagh wrote: post #120

kevinwang wrote: post #5

This person also posted an amazing, unvarnished update recently (about 5-6 years later): https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...

2018: life was perfect with my perfect partner until my perfect partner left me 2021: life is perfect with a new perfect partner who's never going to leave me unlike my previous perfect partner 2023: any guesses?

He certainly seems to have kicked his mental health can down the road. Lots of signals that he is immature in his relationships and perhaps using them as a crutch.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#223

Post by notenoughhorses » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

opportune wrote: post #197

kevinwang wrote: post #5

This person also posted an amazing, unvarnished update recently (about 5-6 years later): https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...

I really don’t like how he tries to diminish his partner’s feeling about “falling behind” as some mirage created by Instagram and classism. I think it’s pretty uncontroversial that most people don’t want to live on $30k/year for their entire life when they could maybe work and get more. Though maybe this is colored by the relevation that follows shortly thereafter. To me it shows an unwillingness to think critically…

I appreciated reading about how both of them reacted to the realities of early retirement. I like to think I could be like the author, and be happy without much, but it did make me think if I might be more like his SO, especially when I see my friends upgrading their lives in our 40s.

My take away from the post is that they fundamentally felt 2 different ways about it. The author did not feel the stuff his SO felt. But she was on board with retiring on “lean fire” so I doubt she predicted this about herself either.

I read this post a few weeks ago, so maybe I’m remembering wrong, but I thought the author was perfectly open to SO returning to work, but she wasn’t sure in the middle of all this if she really wanted to do that? I don’t think it’s the author’s responsibility, and I don’t think he thought it was his responsibility, to decide for his spouse if she worked or not, that was up to her to decide.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#224

Post by CleverLikeAnOx » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 5:58 PM UTC

opportune wrote: post #197

kevinwang wrote: post #5

This person also posted an amazing, unvarnished update recently (about 5-6 years later): https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u...

I really don’t like how he tries to diminish his partner’s feeling about “falling behind” as some mirage created by Instagram and classism. I think it’s pretty uncontroversial that most people don’t want to live on $30k/year for their entire life when they could maybe work and get more. Though maybe this is colored by the relevation that follows shortly thereafter. To me it shows an unwillingness to think critically…

Seems like fundamentally different ways of life between them. The author seems to have strongly held views that fall well outside the mainstream. Something being "pretty uncontroversial" is not a compelling point to such a person, particularly when it clashes with said strongly held views.

I can relate to his outlook. I hope he was more diplomatic during their discussions about this, but now that it's after the fact, we are reading his blunt opinions on the matter. It's hard to know if he is "right" and she really was influenced by status-driven thinking via Instagram, or if he was just being hard-headed. Either or both are plausible to me.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#225

Post by bumby » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 5:59 PM UTC

jbmny wrote: post #205

bumby wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> she does not feel any sort of progress or growth on any level. I think the flip side of this is that many people are so focused on progress and looking forward to the next goal line that they become unable to appreciate the moment and, ironically, happiness is always one more goal away. Recently, I’ve been reading books on Buddhism (specifically how it differs from many Western value systems) and it sheds some ligh…

Any particular books you'd recommend?

You can absolutely find people more qualified for book recommendations on the subject than me, but here are a few:

"Confession of a Buddhist Atheist" by Stephon Batchelor. Useful to me for understanding the cultural context of Buddhism.

Insight Meditation by Joseph Goldstein. I just find Goldstein's style the easiest to comprehend in a field that often comes across as frustratingly esoteric

Wherever You Go There You Are by Jon Kabat-Zinn. I thought this book is interesting because it draws parallels to Western authors, particularly Thoreau.

Sam Harris's "Waking Up" app may also be worth a listen. Besides the actual mindfulness practice, there are a lot of discussions on theory and he has conversations with a variety of people that come to the topic from different perspectives.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#226

Post by mikepurvis » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:01 PM UTC

mym1990 wrote: post #124

mikepurvis wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having done it now for a year, it sounds like you're pretty happy with how it's going. Are you satisfied with what you've achieved? Or is part of the mindset shift that you're just not thinking in those terms any more and are looking only to the day to day? In my working life, I've only ever taken about a month off at a time, but every time I've taken a longer break like that, I end up ultimately feeling dissatisfied…

I am a similar way and at least for me I feel somewhat programmed to be needing to do something or maybe even feeling the need for someone to tell me to do something so that I can feel like I am creating value(not at all saying you are like this, just a personal account). I am in a position where I can be unemployed with little consequence, but I'm afraid that the free time will just go to waste. And I think on a lar…

For me, it's not even the "larger scale"— I'm well aware that the current economic structure allows for a small wealthy leisure class who wile away the days indulging themselves in socializing and consumption activities. And I know there are many who would love nothing more than to join that class and just travel, party, play video games, whatever.

I just... yeah, don't find it satisfying when I've had small tastes of that life. I like to be able to look back at the journey and see how it led to growth in my skills and achievements I'm proud of showing off.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#227

Post by CleverLikeAnOx » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:03 PM UTC

garmaine wrote: post #213

opportune wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don’t like how he tries to diminish his partner’s feeling about “falling behind” as some mirage created by Instagram and classism. I think it’s pretty uncontroversial that most people don’t want to live on $30k/year for their entire life when they could maybe work and get more. Though maybe this is colored by the relevation that follows shortly thereafter. To me it shows an unwillingness to think critically…

Yeah that was a big WTF moment for me too. It is completely normal and human nature to want to do better and have more. This has nothing to do with social media! I couldn’t imagine being stuck in a rut of a frugal fixed income forever. I post nothing on social media, I care nothing about keeping up with what I see there, and I like being different. But I still want to be advancing, improving, and getting more.

I doubt the author sees being frugal as a rut and I doubt that the author sees "getting more" as advancement. You and the other are both human and normal regardless.

The author's outlook on life is completely valid, so is his partner's, so is yours. Your outlooks has nothing to do with social media, but maybe his partner's really did. We only have the author's words to go by for this story.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#228

Post by SavantIdiot » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:06 PM UTC

and0 wrote: post #200

SavantIdiot wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This follow up is way more compelling because it deals with the reality. I'm jealous of the authors communication skills and their partner's: there are some very hard statements in there about feeling worthless and falling behind because of no job. I wonder of those words were spoken calmly, or shouted through tears. Here are their discussions: https://livingafi.com/post-fire-relationship-disconnect/ TL;DR: He has to…

Odd, I was going to comment on how poor the communication with his partner was in the updated post. I realize he'd written the 2021 update after their separation (hard to tell if these individual sections were real-time but even worse if so) but what was happening was so obvious when he first started to mention the issues, and he described her so harshly and without empathy, like she had some bug that needed to be "f…

I think the communication was good and the understanding was lacking. Talking != understanding. And sometimes talking is really really hard when you know it might lead to a minefield.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#229

Post by garmaine » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

CleverLikeAnOx wrote: post #227

garmaine wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah that was a big WTF moment for me too. It is completely normal and human nature to want to do better and have more. This has nothing to do with social media! I couldn’t imagine being stuck in a rut of a frugal fixed income forever. I post nothing on social media, I care nothing about keeping up with what I see there, and I like being different. But I still want to be advancing, improving, and getting more.

I doubt the author sees being frugal as a rut and I doubt that the author sees "getting more" as advancement. You and the other are both human and normal regardless. The author's outlook on life is completely valid, so is his partner's, so is yours. Your outlooks has nothing to do with social media, but maybe his partner's really did. We only have the author's words to go by for this story.

I'm not criticizing his own choices. What I'm surprised at is his lack of empathy for his partner's. We have only one side of the story, but it does seem very one-sided.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#230

Post by throwaway675309 » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

temp8964 wrote: post #165

kerkeslager wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course people can choose not having spouse or kids. What do you mean there is zero alternative? You're doing that thing where you claim there's freedom of choice because you're ignoring the punishment inflicted on one choice. The choice not to commit to a long-term relationship has had severe financial implications for centuries, especially if you are female. Until the invention of effective birth control, the c…

The whole point is that even with material support, people still need to live with spouse and kids, and having a regular work (not necessarily work for someone else), to have a happy life. Yes, modern technology and economy makes it easier for you to live alone but it does not change the basic human needs. Eventually you will need a spouse (same or opposite sex), not just for the money, not for the sex, but for the i…

Lot of Buddhist monks would disagree with you pretty strongly. I think you are projecting your own needs/wants/desires and I get that, it's hard to get "out of your own head"... so to speak.