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Social media are turbocharging the export of America’s political culture

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221–230 of 254 posts

Re: Social media are turbocharging the export of America’s political culture

#221
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't sound difficult to me. It has nothing to do with whiteness and maleness; it's about political power. If there is a group that is a dominant political power, it's the same thing. That's why issues of 'reverse racism' are a different problem: Discrimination is about power, not race. If American Buddhists are discriminatory against Baptists, it's obnoxious but not an issue of oppression or much threat to Bapt…

> It doesn't sound difficult to me. It has nothing to do with whiteness and maleness; it's about political power. This kind of attitude is a big problem with US cultural export. You have to realize that the US has a unique history with unique problems. Slavery, segregation etc etc. Majority-minority relations in other countries will have different histories and many different nuances. A straightforward application or…

Agreed, though my point is that the issues of power and discrimination are the same, just with different groups and different applications of them.

Re: Social media are turbocharging the export of America’s political culture

#222
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does a police officer being more afraid during a traffic stop of black people have to do with institutional power? The police officer is institutional power. The organization which issues him a gun is institutional power. The prosecutor who will decline to prosecute him when he murders a black man is institutional power.

Obviously, but the officer being more scared of a black person has nothing to do with institutional power, that's my point. I can be a penniless, poor homeless person and still be a racist piece of shit. I don't require power for that. In my example, the fact that the person is a police officer has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they are also discriminating. Certainly issues arise when the two intersect…

> the officer being more scared of a black person

That's a hypothetical that you created, it's not a fact: The fact is that civilians do not oppress police officers. They very rarely kill them, imprison them, stop and frisk them, etc.

> I can be a penniless, poor homeless person and still be a racist piece of shit. I don't require power for that.

> Certainly issues arise when the two intersect (having institutional power and discriminating) but don't conflate the two as the same.

I didn't call them the same; they are certainly different. The point is that it doesn't matter too much if there is discrimination without power. The penniless poor person will have little effect on the passing African-American's life; the police officer can easily ruin their life.

> this whole argument rests on the fact that power is some binary thing which isn't true at all. Power imbalances exist in every facet of life and sometimes, traditionally "oppressed" classes of people have more power than "oppressor classes" in some situation or another.

I agree, I actually thought about that, but I left out that nuance (I can't write a dissertation on HN; something must be left out). But since you bring it up: Yes, anyone can suffer discrimination on the micro level. But that is much less of an issue; it doesn't rise to the level of a society issue for two reasons:

As an example, I was going door-to-door for a political campaign and one person said to me, 'get your [deleted] ass off my porch': They were in a vulnerable group and I wasn't.

First, I wasn't feeling threatened because, again, they lacked power. They couldn't call the police and have me arrested; their neighbors wouldn't beat me up. It was just one person being jerk. Think of it this way: I've knocked on doors after dark around elections (which are in November in the U.S., and polls usually close after dark). Doing that in a white neighborhood, I've thought - what if I was a black man? It would be dangerous for me.

Second, it's just an isolated event and not a macro, society-wide problem. African-Americans have been suffering widespread discrimination by almost every institution and large sections of the population, creating great harm for generations. I had a bad experience for a few seconds. While the person shouldn't have acted that way, it wasn't a big deal; it doesn't rise to the level of a major society issue requiring legislation and Constitutional amendments. It also didn't evoke a lifetime of abuse and threat; it was just annoying. I said 'ok' and went to the next house.

Re: Social media are turbocharging the export of America’s political culture

#223
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such people do exist, like the governor of Florida, who just passed a rule that appears to ban teaching that Florida had slavery and said it was to stop "critical race theory" and the 1619 Project.

Your response is a non-sequitur. Even if it was true, it doesn’t change anything about the ad-hominem I pointed out. > that appears to ban teaching that Florida had slavery Does it? Can you quote the part that bans teaching that Florida had slavery?

You ask a lot of questions for someone who does nothing but quote fallacies in response to the answers. Have any factual contributions?

Re: Social media are turbocharging the export of America’s political culture

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you even know what it means to run a social platform? Hacker news has added no features for like 10 years and has two moderators. TWO. Hacker news doesn’t do “growth.” It doesn’t send re-engagement emails. It doesn’t have an official app. It doesn’t run TV ads. Yet it’s one of the most visited sites on the web. Any below-average software engineer could build and deploy a clone within a single day. How is there n…

In Russia we do have a social network for nerds that is quite popular (habr.com). It's not like Hacker News though. We also have several other social networks, e.g. vk.com, which started as an exact clone of the first Facebook version (even layout and colors were the same). They're quite popular in Russia and former USSR republics. Although all platforms with user articles and user comments are somewhat poisoned by t…

Er, what US troll factories? I have never heard of this, and I can’t find any news articles about them. Sounds dubious.

Re: Social media are turbocharging the export of America’s political culture

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Russia we do have a social network for nerds that is quite popular (habr.com). It's not like Hacker News though. We also have several other social networks, e.g. vk.com, which started as an exact clone of the first Facebook version (even layout and colors were the same). They're quite popular in Russia and former USSR republics. Although all platforms with user articles and user comments are somewhat poisoned by t…

Er, what US troll factories? I have never heard of this, and I can’t find any news articles about them. Sounds dubious.

I think anticodon is viewing posts critical of Russia as manufactured rather than organic. "There can't be enough people out there who actually think this to post all this stuff, so it must be a troll factory!" But I think that plenty of people do in fact view Russia negatively, and they speak their mind. (But then anticodon could think that the reason that they all think negative things about Russia is because of troll factories driving our news...)

On the other hand, I would bet that both the RNC and DNC have operations that we would label as a troll factory if it occurred in another country. Certain companies do as well (we complain here about wildly overzealous policing of corporate images).

But I don't think that's actually what anticodon is talking about. I think he's just seeing the mainstream press consensus (groupthink?) working its way through the filter of the population, and regarding that as a troll operation.

Re: Social media are turbocharging the export of America’s political culture

#226
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there is a group that is a dominant political power, it's the same thing The problem is to assume that dominant political actors cohere to constitute a group, a conspiratorial evil one at that. Hypotheses of evil conspirators played out so many times throughout history and it never ended well. We all have a not-so-high-precision heuristic of detecting agency, therefore we sometimes ascribe agency where there is…

That's a conceptual question but doesn't call into question the practical reality: People clearly have some identity as a group, and act against other perceived groups. In the last few years it's gone from subtle to brazenly, proudly advocated, as evidenced by ethnic nationalism. Arguably, much of the worst in human history was born from discrimination against a group: Armenians, Tutsis, Jews, African-Americans, Musl…

I'll start with your second question.

> How do you reconcile what you say with the fact that people do have group identities - not as their complete identity, but part of it - and act as a group and treat others as members of groups?

This has evolutionary roots in kin selection; we as primates do have some machinery that makes us favor the survival of individuals that fulfill some definition of kin. I want to make it very clear, this is a proposition of "what is" and not "what ought". Just because we do have the machinery doesn't make it right, as it can escalate all the way up to genocide. But acknowledging it is a good first step. No one is pure, no one is inherently innocent about it, but also no human is only a primate.

> That's a conceptual question but doesn't call into question the practical reality: People clearly have some identity as a group, and act against other perceived groups.

This is where the definition of identity becomes pivotal; we must not conflate an ontological identity (x is an x and only an x), and a categorical identity (x belongs to the category y). Group identities are the latter. The problem with categorical identities are the certain amount of frivolousness we are allowed about it;

Let's suppose an object a has n attributes, and object b has m attributes. For all objects n and m are infinitely many. Therefore whenever we make a comparison such that "a and b mutually share a subset between their n and m attributes, therefore they are similar" we are excluding infinitely many attributes that they do not share. Conversely, by only selecting a certain subset of those infinitely many attributes, we could claim any two objects to be in the same category. This makes categorical identity by definition a purpose specific, subjective construct. Its key function is relevance; that the attributes we chose are relevant to our goal.

This is exactly where the combination of the machinery for kin selection and inherent flexibility of categorical identity exposes us to hijack. You can convince anyone that they belong to a group by defining a group with the attributes that you find most useful for you. But that doesn't mean it was the best category to approach to the problem with. E.g. just as ethnic nationalism has exploded in Europe, racial essentialism has exploded in the US while very peculiarly missing class identity as a solid alternative that could actually address a good proportion of the grievances. Is this because the flexibility of categorical identity was (ab)used by those who wouldn't find discussions around class identity favorable, or because there was a true essence to those initial categories? My vote; it is more #1 than not.

To sum up; group identities are self-fulfilling, overly flexible and most importantly purpose built constructs. Wrongly choosing the category could as well ossify the problems it is trying to solve than to help people break free of them. I'll even one up; the meta-group of "belonging to a group" is even bigger of a problem; to convince people that the fact that they can be group-things is more important than them being individuals creates a greater host of framing issues for them.

Re: Social media are turbocharging the export of America’s political culture

#227
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your response is a non-sequitur. Even if it was true, it doesn’t change anything about the ad-hominem I pointed out. > that appears to ban teaching that Florida had slavery Does it? Can you quote the part that bans teaching that Florida had slavery?

You ask a lot of questions for someone who does nothing but quote fallacies in response to the answers. Have any factual contributions?

You not being able to provide a quote seems like a relevant fact.

Re: Social media are turbocharging the export of America’s political culture

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think this is a matter of liking someone. Replace political views with religion and we provide protections against discrimination of someone based on their religion. Let me spell out the problem more clearly, it’s not as simple as your boss not liking you. 1) Coworker gets to find out someone doesn’t share their political beliefs. 2) They try to get moral superiority over the person … because disagreeing with…

The first three points seem like normal human behavior, we used to call it “the marketplace of ideas”. The problem comes in with the weak willed company management who decides to fire the person. Let’s put the blame where it belongs, here, not with the Twitter mob.

The weak willed company management is weakened because of the mob. It's a full circle. Company management would be on the chopping block of they try to disagree with the mob. It would destroy the company into absolute dust. So, they comply.

Re: Social media are turbocharging the export of America’s political culture

#229

The rest of the world should be aggressively promoting their culture, values and language, just like the US. Japan is doing a very good job of that with the proliferation of weebs, but others are not. Europe barely exports any culture or media - especially in their own languages. Most things EU are regionally locked and if they aren't, they are behind paywalls or accessible through American networks. Were I to try an…

Spain does export culture and media, and is not that difficult to watch, and if you don't want to use Netflix or Amazon you'll be fine. The thing is that english is lingua franca, and there's quite a lot of people in the anglosphere who's aware of this fact and actively tries to influence foreign countries. In the past it was mostly leaning towards free-market ideas, nowadays is mostly this american social-liberalism…

Korea created a kpop generation with a government grant.

Re: Social media are turbocharging the export of America’s political culture

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first three points seem like normal human behavior, we used to call it “the marketplace of ideas”. The problem comes in with the weak willed company management who decides to fire the person. Let’s put the blame where it belongs, here, not with the Twitter mob.

The weak willed company management is weakened because of the mob. It's a full circle. Company management would be on the chopping block of they try to disagree with the mob. It would destroy the company into absolute dust. So, they comply.

> It would destroy the company into absolute dust.

I honestly don’t think it would. The Twitter mob is a bunch of loud voices, that’s all. A bunch of people using online. I doubt they could arrange an actual effective boycott.

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