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Why we should end the data economy

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Re: Why we should end the data economy

#221

Post by 9wzYQbTYsAIc »

Raidion wrote: post #196
xibalba wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you please demonstrate to me how I, Joe Q. Public, can find out, via collected data that I can access, with whom another person is sleeping with? Or, in lieu of that, walk me through how that would be done with Facebook's, Google's, or Apple's data via your first-hand knowledge of those data and where and how they are stored and accessed? These fear mongering comments about data collection have never demonstrat…

I'm undecided on this topic, but playing devil's advocate: Does the fact that this knowledge exists, and only in the hands of some of the largest (and most pervasive) tech companies in the world, make this information 'safer', or does it mean that it's a 'force multiplier' that increases the risk that this information will be used a) to enable anti-competitive behavior or b) be co-opted by authoritarian governments t…

Or on the flip side of that question: is it safer in the hands of the user, to be shared as desired, by explicitly opting in, or would it be safer in the hands of a corporate entity?

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#222

Post by tibiahurried »

The Data Economy is what enables "free" product for the end-user. Think about email, drive, video. Users are now used to get most of this stuff for free. And that's possible thanks to the Data Economy.

End such economy basically means the users will start paying for the internet. Never gonna happen.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#223

Post by SahAssar »

fsagx wrote: post #47
SahAssar wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If enough people end their own interaction with it it ceases to exist, right? If nobody gave their data to services that sell it on or use it for profit then there is no data economy.

A person would have to live a Kaczynski-like lifestyle to not interact with services that aggregate and sell data. No credit card, no cellphone, no internet. Cash only.

The point is that for each person that ends their interaction with these companies the less data they have on everyone. If only one tenth of my friends use facebook they will have less data on me than if 9 tenths do.

Convincing even one person to choose more privacy friendly choices helps a little.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#224

Post by an_opabinia »

codeisawesome wrote: post #195
yboris wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author of this article, Carissa Véliz, also wrote Privacy Is Power: Why and How You Should Take Back Control of Your Data https://www.amazon.com/Privacy-Power-Should-Take-Control/dp/...

If one were to buy that book (or even visit the link) - some new interesting ‘data points’ have now been collected ;) Actually no, not a wink, it’s terrifying :D D:

Privacy for me, but not for thee.

Imagine trying to be a new author, marketing a book before Amazon, before Twitter and Facebook.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#225

Post by lukifer »

ianai wrote: post #85
amelius wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too late. You already clicked "I agree" on that EULA.

Since the civil war, you can’t sign ownership of yourself over to another. The ownership of data that intensive seems the same thing.

This is a fundamental, and perhaps insoluble, problem with the moral principle of liberty and self-ownership: to what extent should you be permitted to voluntarily limit, surrender, or exchange that ownership?

One can certainly make a case that even limited-scope non-compete clauses in employment contracts are an affront to human dignity; on the other extreme, there are those who would claim that freedom necessarily includes the "right" to sell one's self into indefinite servitude. Where do we draw the line? I don't see an intrinsic "bright line" or Schelling Focus on the question. What is the "statute of limitations" on the Present Self being constrained by the choices of the Past Self (at least, in the context of contract enforcement)?

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#226

Post by wyre »

matz1 wrote: post #191
shkkmo wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst thing about the information economy of today is absolutely the inequality of access. We would be better off if everything that is collected was public. I don't think that means we don't need privacy. It absolutely has value. The problem is when privacy is only available to the rich and powerful, while the details about the rest of us are hoarded and used by the very same powerful people who pay such a premi…

>I don't think that means we don't need privacy. It absolutely has value. I never heard any convincing argument about why privacy has value. >but that doesn't mean we should allow everything to be collected. Why ?

People spend money on privacy. This gives it value.

I don’t know anyone that would want to spend money on a hotel if there was a security camera in the room. I would get the more expensive room without the camera, probably go to a different hotel.

Doctor and patient confidentiality is implicitly understood. Do you think doctors should be able to tell advertisers what their patients are going through.

Maybe your own individual privacy doesn’t have value to you, and that’s okay, but other people value their privacy, and these corps profiting off data definitely find value in lack of privacy.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#227

Post by lanstin »

Cederfjard wrote: post #161
slver wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From reading this list, I can deduce OP just made up most of them, because over half of them contains details that are total BS. Also I happen to think we'd be a better society if we all knew everything about each other. Instead of discouraging companies from analyzing us, encourage them to publish everything all the time. Let governments join in on the fun. Everyone should be tracking an analyzing everyone else. Sol…

What a complete and utter nightmare. You say that you think this would lead to a better society. That aside, how would you personally feel if this vision was to become reality? For me, I’m certain my mind being totally exposed like that would lead to debilitating mental illness and possibly even the loss of the will to live. I can’t imagine human beings, either as individuals or a collective, being fundamentally equi…

Did you ever read David Brin's The Transparent Society (used to be a web article, I think it might be a book now). He argues that as networking and miniaturization progress, and given the curiosity of 9 year olds, we have 2 choices: everyone has all data about everyone else, or, the powerful (gov't corps rich) have all data about everyone else, and the powerful have privacy. I'm not sure if I think that's true, but I can't really think of a counter-argument.

If someone can slip cameras into what looks to me like gnats and film my bathing, well, my bathing isn't so exciting, but how can we prevent it? Some weird EM shielding arms race on nano-bots or something? And still all the sound I utter will be recorded. I wouldn't want to live on a planet with no insects. If I were 9 and I had a "build your own flying gnat" kit, pretty sure I might try to find out about what naked people look like. Now I grew up in a relatively repressed family and society, so maybe the cool Europeans have a different take on it. Maybe if there's 10M "watch people all the time" public channels with video feeds from all over the planet, peoples mental health would adjust somehow. I suspect we'll find out. Most people (that I talk to in real life) are stolidly uninterested in the "omg, do you know what the data people are gathering thru your phone" facts.

I for sure don't want to live in a society where the powerful have privacy and none of the regular people do.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#228

Post by belter »

saddlerustle wrote: post #210
rootusrootus wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the problem is merely Facebook, Google, or Apple, then I think you are underestimating the amount of data and who is processing it. There is an entire industry of companies you have never heard of that are thinking up ever more creative ways to put data together from various sources, identify it, correlate it, and then sell the 'insights' to whoever wants to pay. At the very least, at a bare minimum, I t…

Which company, apart from Facebook, Google and Apple, would remotely have access to any of the data on that list? Facebook Google and Apple don't share data with data brokers.

I have a bridge to sell you.

"Gmail messages 'read by human third parties'" https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44699263

"One company told the Wall Street Journal that the practice was "common" and a "dirty secret". ...Google indicated that the practice was not against its policies."

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#229

Post by an_opabinia »

SavantIdiot wrote: post #80
cs702 wrote: post #54

No one sane would ever want their relatives, friends, work colleagues, and neighbors to be able to know (quoting from the OP): > who you sleep with because both you and the person you share your bed with keep your phones nearby > whether you sleep soundly at night or whether your troubles are keeping you up > whether you pick up your phone in the middle of the night and search for things like "loan repayment" > your…

This is a great list. SO many times people have said to me, "Let them track me, I've got nothing to hide." And you hit them with a few things off this list and they immediately change their mind. There should be a tinurl for website I can send people to that shows a simple list of all the ways personal information can be used.

> SO many times people have said to me

I'm sure that's happened.

> to some legal agreement almost no one has the time to read or expertise to understand in its full implications... New Declaration of Human Rights

In the same breath: complain about long documents that no one reads, propose authoring an unenforceable, even longer document that no one will read.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#230

Post by lanstin »

jeffreygoesto wrote: post #91
infogulch wrote: post #65

Somehow organizations get an immense amount of value out of tracking everything you do, say, think, and buy; everywhere you go; and everyone you meet. Two questions: 1. Why should they profit off of my data without my consent? (Hint: they shouldn't.) 2. Why is it so hard for me to get value out of it? Shit, if it's gonna be collected, aggregated, and analyzed anyway, I should just do it my damn self and actually get…

I don't think so. It is not the data itself that has value. It is a game of information asymmetry and that corporations can make you desire things you wouldn't desire without that interaction. They then convert a fraction of that desire into money flowing from you to them that you otherwise would have kept. Maybe I am old school or too naive, but I don't see how I would make a personal margin with my own data.

If you had a clear list of "these sort of news items/OC from friends makes me more susceptible to being convinced by questionable ideas/donate money/stay up at night." then you could perhaps take steps to preserve your ability to stay more rational, more the way you want yourself to be and less easy to manipulate by ads/partisans/etc.
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