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Pesticides are killing the world's soils

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#221

Post by snovv_crash »

Ma8ee wrote: post #180
snovv_crash wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's far worse than GMO. Because besides the changes which were desired, there are also a whole bunch of random mutations which were introduced, which could do anything from making the species highly invasive, to putting carcinogens in the parts used for human consumption. GM is much safer and easier to verify as not having harmful side effects. And, it's easier. The only reason they invented this process at all…

Also, what process is there for verifying that GMOs don't have any harmful side effects that you can't use for traditionally bred plants?

With GMOs you know exactly where the differences are, so you can test very deeply on those components. Traditional breeding and these accelerated mutation processes could have differences anywhere, so you pretty much need to do a ground up re-evaluation of the whole organism to get the same safety coverage as GM. (yeah right, like traditional breeders are going to do that).

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#223

Post by hinkley »

filoeleven wrote: post #210
hinkley wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We'll have the same problem that salmon farms and honeybee wranglers have now: so many parasites that they transfer to the wild populations. I mean, I still think we should farm insects, but as a more natural substitute for corn for our omnivore meat sources.

Yeah, I haven’t looked into that but there’s no reason to expect otherwise. Speaking broadly, farming optimizes for output and disregards the ecosystems that the farms are a part of. For each farmer, this is okay; it works for them for now. Taken as a whole, it is not okay and contributes to bigger problems later (sometimes for earlier values of later). A greater understanding of farming trade-offs when it comes to e…

A bunch of organic and permaculture people are discovering that you can feed food waste to chickens. They get a little veg, and then as the rest breaks down the food slowly turns into bugs and worms.

It's morally similar to pre-consumer paper recycling - you're sourcing materials from food services. As long and you can keep the carbon footprint of transportation down, it's something you can use to offset feed corn, which has a large footprint. One place corn wins out is the low moisture content. You're not trucking water back and forth. But the corn doesn't win out on nutrition or quality of life for the animals, nor from a host of environmental concerns.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#224

Post by fy20 »

mro_name wrote: post #99
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone I have been studying that is a step up in scale from permaculture is Jean-Martin Fortier [1] (inspired by Eliot Coleman [2]) who does a fully organic/biodynamic system. It is relatively small scale but high output for-profit farming. I am developing an open source robot that I hope will be able to farm this way, though it’s early days. [3] JM Fortier of course is only one of many skilled farmers throughout th…

Permaculture is phantastic – however, how does it align with selling produce, i.e. removing material from the farm?

There are many parts of the plant left over even after harvesting the parts you can sell commercially as food. Those can be used to produce compost which can go back in the soil.

Compare this to how most commercial farming is done today, where whatever is left over is usually used as animal feed.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#225

Post by Ma8ee »

snovv_crash wrote: post #221
Ma8ee wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, what process is there for verifying that GMOs don't have any harmful side effects that you can't use for traditionally bred plants?

With GMOs you know exactly where the differences are, so you can test very deeply on those components. Traditional breeding and these accelerated mutation processes could have differences anywhere, so you pretty much need to do a ground up re-evaluation of the whole organism to get the same safety coverage as GM. (yeah right, like traditional breeders are going to do that).

You assume that it is easy to predict exactly what effect some genes from some bacteria would have is, say, spinach. It is rarely so. In traditional breeding, you know what you start with, and crossing two variants from the same species never creates anything unexpected.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#226

Post by [deleted] »

Ma8ee wrote: post #225
snovv_crash wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With GMOs you know exactly where the differences are, so you can test very deeply on those components. Traditional breeding and these accelerated mutation processes could have differences anywhere, so you pretty much need to do a ground up re-evaluation of the whole organism to get the same safety coverage as GM. (yeah right, like traditional breeders are going to do that).

You assume that it is easy to predict exactly what effect some genes from some bacteria would have is, say, spinach. It is rarely so. In traditional breeding, you know what you start with, and crossing two variants from the same species never creates anything unexpected.

[deleted]

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#227

Post by snovv_crash »

Ma8ee wrote: post #225
snovv_crash wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With GMOs you know exactly where the differences are, so you can test very deeply on those components. Traditional breeding and these accelerated mutation processes could have differences anywhere, so you pretty much need to do a ground up re-evaluation of the whole organism to get the same safety coverage as GM. (yeah right, like traditional breeders are going to do that).

You assume that it is easy to predict exactly what effect some genes from some bacteria would have is, say, spinach. It is rarely so. In traditional breeding, you know what you start with, and crossing two variants from the same species never creates anything unexpected.

These processes are not crossing existing lines of plants. They bombard the seeds with radiation to massively increase the number of mutations, then select in the much more highly variable results for the traits they are interested in. There is nothing predictable or controlled about the process, it is just a way of getting a result quickly without getting a GMO label at the same time. It gives the same safety margins as traditional breeding, but is much less safe than GMOs.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#228

Post by herbst »

rosetremiere wrote: post #119
andrei_says_ wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could say that the initiative to subsidize farmers who use highly toxic chemicals and unsustainable practices resulting in depletion and eventual destruction of soil is also drastic. As in paying money to destroy the soil and help someone profit a bit extra in the process is maybe not the best investment of people’s taxes. Of course, it took us some time to start paying attention to the externalities. But now tha…

To clarify, I believe the goals are laudable, and the "drastic" adjective was the best approximation I had. My first guess would be to vote 2× yes, but I have some reservations: * I heard that even among organic farmers, it was not a clear 2× yes. * There is the question of efficiency of organic/no pesticide farming: are we going to have a really bad output and something less ecological in the end due to more work fo…

I am surrounded by organic farmers as well as "2 mal nein" (2 Times no) propaganda. I don't understand it, but it seems they are going for no.

Re: Pesticides are killing the world's soils

#229

Post by herbst »

brainzap wrote: post #80
rosetremiere wrote: post #44

In Switzerland, we're soon going to vote on two initiatives ¹² aiming at reducing pesticide use. The first is essentially about forbidding the use of all artificial pesticides by 2031 (also importation of food that was produced abroad using pesticides). The second is about removing subsidies to farmers that use any kind of pesticide, or regularly use antibiotics on their livestock, etc. I feel like they are quite dra…

The initiative includes that farmers have to produce the fodder themself. wtf?

Farming in Switzerland is a completely different, smaller, culture. Think many small farmers working together instead of one or two big farmers per valley
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