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Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

reuters.com

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Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#221

Post by clouddrover »

gmadsen wrote: post #189
ghoward wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More people need to see your comment because there seems to be a belief that full self driving is just around the corner. However, IMO, it will never happen because it needs a full artificial general intelligence. In your case, the new lane was clearly marked, which just shows how weak the system really is. Imagine if there was snow covering the lane markings. Or sunlight reflecting off of the road confuses the visio…

It is disingenuous to equate general self driving with tesla autopilot. The idea the full AGI is required is silly and incorrect. Waymo does not have these issues at all. It couldn't happen either. You don't need AGI to have a detailed map, you don't need AGI to properly localize to a detailed map. these are problems Tesla is giving itself

> Waymo does not have these issues at all.

False:

https://jalopnik.com/watch-a-waymo-av-get-freaked-out-by-tra...

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#222

Post by RandomWorker »

sutherland wrote: post #6

This is part of Tesla's plan to transition to a vision-only system: - FUD-free Tesla Daily coverage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3zsmZx4kfA - Details from Tesla: https://www.tesla.com/support/transitioning-tesla-vision

Right on, this might be a great move.

Though radar is a powerful technology. Two camera's with the right depth sensing software behind it could do a lot. What about light source though? Camera's with great light sources provide a super powerful technology, but what are you going to do in the dark/rain? Then again, camera's are cheaper and can do better in some conditions with (semi)reflective surfaces. It's all up in the air, but making sense of the world in a moving object with constantly changing scenery and multiple other vehicles/cyclists/foot traffic moving around.

I think the argument they make is quite interesting, with vision (our eyes) we do anything and everything in the car. Therefore, camera's are like eyes so they should give comparable performance. The fact is that the dynamic range of the eye is insane and no commercial camera can currently even come close to it. Once that technology is there, (which is physically impossible with the current sensor tech) I'd agree with them.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#223

Post by ping_pong »

Lendal wrote: post #55

The irritating thing is it's all so unnecessary. My Tesla is a great car. But I paid an extra $10,000 for a feature that was promised but still hasn't been fully delivered, FSD. It feels like I paid extra for my awesome car to be sabotaged. What was promised by FSD was never going to be possible, and yet they are doubling down. They need to stop this idiocy. The vision system is horrible. The car stops at green light…

Have they delivered ANY of the features of FSD? Is even Summon out of Beta? I have a Model 3 but I refused to pay for basically a Kickstarter version of FSD. For the purposes of revenue recognition, they can't claim any of the revenues until the features they promised are delivered. But the fact that it has been years is still shocking to me. How have they avoided getting a class action lawsuit? And the fact that they admitted that their "FSD" is only Level 2 is mind blowing. Some of the statements by Elon are borderline fraudulent, if not fraudulent, like how he expects the price of FSD to be worth more than $100k.

And this seems to be par for the course for Tesla. If you look at what they've done with Solar Roof, they have increased prices by 50% for people who already have signed contracts. It's blatantly illegal and yet they are fearless in trying to trick people into cancelling their contracts. Hopefully the current class action lawsuit for Solar Roof gets traction because it's incredible to me that Tesla behaves like this and doesn't get their ass handed to them in court.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#224

Post by asah »

theopsguy wrote: post #160
philjohn wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about conditions such as fog?

Human drive in fog just fine with pure vision, why can’t AI do the same? Keep in mind that vision is needed in all cases for lane keeping at the very minimum. So if vision is not able to see in fog, it won’t be able to self drive even radar is working.

False. Here's dozens of cases of pile-ups caused by fog:

https://www.google.com/search?q=fog+highway+pile+up

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#225

Post by ping_pong »

popz41 wrote: post #158
jdhn wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But I paid an extra $10,000 for a feature that was promised but still hasn't been fully delivered As far as I'm concerned, that $10k is basically an interest free loan to Tesla. FSD as promised by Elon is going to take decades, and the worst part is that it's not even transferable from one car to another.

Full Self Driving actually counts as deferred revenue to Tesla, and is reported as a liability on the balance sheet. They cant realize that income until the feature is delivered.

They can still spend that cash though. It's just an accounting formality.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#226

Post by justapassenger »

popz41 wrote: post #158
jdhn wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But I paid an extra $10,000 for a feature that was promised but still hasn't been fully delivered As far as I'm concerned, that $10k is basically an interest free loan to Tesla. FSD as promised by Elon is going to take decades, and the worst part is that it's not even transferable from one car to another.

Full Self Driving actually counts as deferred revenue to Tesla, and is reported as a liability on the balance sheet. They cant realize that income until the feature is delivered.

They already recognized large part of that revenue. That was the main reason for them to release half baked party tricks, like smart summon, or weird ones like traffic light control (that will stop your on green light). They used it to recognize more FSD revenue. In 2020 they booked over $250M of that revenue, to help them boost profits.

Don't underestimate power of accounting, mixed with loose ethics.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#227

Post by jfrunyon »

arcticfox wrote: post #211
ffggvv wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

theres actually no proof of the claim that its safer or even as safe as human driving. The only "data" is from tesla themselves. Which will hurtle you 200mph at a wall and then disengage autopilot 100ms before hitting the wall and not count it as an autopilot death.

> Which will hurtle you 200mph at a wall and then disengage autopilot 100ms before hitting the wall and not count it as an autopilot death. This is false: "To ensure our statistics are conservative, we count any crash in which Autopilot was deactivated within 5 seconds before a crash." https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport It would be more helpful to focus on actually deceptive issues in how they report data, nam…

5 seconds is not nearly enough time. If you need to drive 3 seconds behind a vehicle going the same speed as you to have safe reaction time & stopping distance, then you certainly can't (a) move your attention back to the road you weren't looking at because "autopilot" "self-driving" and (b) react to a stationary object and (c) come to a stop, all in 5.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#228

Post by nickik »

wearywanderer wrote: post #162
rootusrootus wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Tesla is very close to a do-or-die situation. They are in severe danger of being disrupted by the very automakers they took on. If they can't make a profit with the current market conditions (and they haven't, right? their profit is entirely due to credits?), I just don't think it's necessarily going to get any easier as time goes on. EVs are commodities.

I think you're probably right, and I came to believe this strongly when I heard about the electric F-150 a few days ago. If Ford can make a electric truck that works properly and has all the spare parts availability / 3rd party repairability of a normal truck, then cybertruck seems DOA. Some fanboys might buy it for the memes, but if I intended to buy a truck to actually use as a truck , the choice between these two…

Even if you assume a conversion ratio of 20% for Cybertruck and F-150 reservation, Ford couldn't build that many EV trucks in 3 years.

The idea that the Cybertruck who has 100ks of reservations and beats the F-150 on pretty much every technical metric will not sell well is just nonsense.

> actually use as a truck

So people who 'actually use' a truck don't want to drive long distance or transport a lot of cargo? Or charge fast if they do want to go long distances?

People who want to go off-road don't want significant better clearing.

People who have expensive tools or carry a lot of luggage don't want to make sure its not stolen?

What's your objective measure other then the look of the Cybertruck are you applying here.

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#229

Post by [deleted] »

vishnugupta wrote: post #111
gauravphoenix wrote: post #58

>removing radar sensors to transition to a camera-based Autopilot system A few weeks back, I had a terrible experience while using auto pilot. I was driving on a highway (in CA) with autopilot engaged. For the most part, there was a concrete median on the highway. Suddenly, a section came with no concrete median and a new left only turn lane gets added. For whatever reasons, autopilot thought it is a great idea to su…

For me this is a big drawback of half-baked autopilot. It takes us humans time to engage in a split second and react to surroundings even if they are monitoring it. When driving I'm constantly updating my situation awareness by doing a 360 degree scan every few seconds and I'm 100% engaged with the car so I know which way to safely swerve, what happens if I slam the brakes etc.,. With this auto-pilot-assist I'm monit…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

#230

Post by ffggvv »

arcticfox wrote: post #211
ffggvv wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

theres actually no proof of the claim that its safer or even as safe as human driving. The only "data" is from tesla themselves. Which will hurtle you 200mph at a wall and then disengage autopilot 100ms before hitting the wall and not count it as an autopilot death.

> Which will hurtle you 200mph at a wall and then disengage autopilot 100ms before hitting the wall and not count it as an autopilot death. This is false: "To ensure our statistics are conservative, we count any crash in which Autopilot was deactivated within 5 seconds before a crash." https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport It would be more helpful to focus on actually deceptive issues in how they report data, nam…

*except in cases where the black box is totally destroyed due to 4 hour battery fires.

yeah maybe i was exaggerating but autopilot can definitely get you in positions where its impossible to get out of and the deactivate 5 secs before actual collision.

And autopilot is only engaged on highways but they are comparing its safety to accidents per mile in general. But those stats are strongly skewed by city and non-highway driving, where autopilot doesnt work at all.

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