Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1 • Hacker News Board

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#221

Post by tisFine » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

fooqux wrote: post #44

threeseed wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple’s blanket ban on interpreted code is not arbitrary. It is there to prevent apps circumventing the review process and security model ie. apps pretending to do X during the review process and then doing Y when in use or obfuscating their use of private APIs. Now you can argue these restrictions are unreasonable but many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers.

> many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers And many of us do . I would never buy a locked-down piece of hardware like that. But I don't think it matters either way what either side wants, because it's what Apple wants that matters. They want to keep their walled garden's walls air tight, and there are apparently enough people that are OK living in that garden that it works. I'm positive tha…

I keep hearing about walled gardens, and not how it’s merely a choice among many. Linux works on tablets and phones. What’s that? It’s a janky mess?

Maybe developers could stop looking at the green grass on Apples side of the fence and bring that polish to open-source.

But I imagine that will simply devolve into the mess it already is, with flame wars, and figurative genital punching to prove how hardcore one is for the obfuscated C they cobbled together.

There was time when Linux distributions were thought of as walled gardens. Cobble together just the right collection of source for you! Don’t let Red Hat control your mind! SystemD is a cage for your soul!

Meanwhile, Apple just got the damn job done and moved on.

If it’s a choice between masochistic elitism or filtered content. Hmmm…

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#222

Post by Someone » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

caddybox wrote: post #70

threeseed wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple sells $20-30 billion worth of iPads each year. I think they might just survive without your business. And pretty sure it demonstrates that their formula of security and privacy over openness is the right one for them.

> Apple sells $20-30 billion worth of iPads each year. > I think they might just survive without your business. The parent post makes some the argument that the restrictive nature of iOS makes it unappealing to certain users. You counter that with a discussion-ending argument about how much money Apple makes. Not everything that makes billions of dollars is immune to criticism. Especially since Apple markets the iPad…

> Especially since Apple markets the iPad as a "computer"

Do they? I don’t follow their ads closely, but I can’t find the word “computer” on https://www.apple.com/ipad-pro/ (given the 8tneractivity on that page, it still may be there, but I tried looking hard, and couldn’t find it), and they have an explicit ad saying “iPad Pro — Your next computer is not a computer” (https://youtube.com/watch?v=09_QxCcBEyU)

Can you point to that marketing?

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#223

Post by r00fus » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:11 PM UTC

sp332 wrote: post #64

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Write XOR Execute restriction discussed in the article is a security feature, and it’s greatly beneficial from a security standpoint. > Until I can run a proper version of Firefox on iPad FireFox for iOS works just fine. The Gecko vs WebKit difference doesn’t really matter in practice. If you want general purpose computing, just get a Mac. You can run Firefox and any other program you’d like. It would be great if…

Firefox on iOS is not Gecko. Like all other browsers on iOS, it is a skin on the OS-provided Webkit. This is because fast JS execution depends on operations that are illegal for apps to access.

So we're talking about the M1 Macs, not iPhones - Firefox on Mac is Gecko. So the comparison of Webkit (iOS FF) vs. Gecko (Mac FF) is the comparison being made as you can download both if you want.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#224

Post by Siira » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #32

jeroenhd wrote: post #24

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

Apple’s blanket ban on interpreted code is not arbitrary. It is there to prevent apps circumventing the review process and security model ie. apps pretending to do X during the review process and then doing Y when in use or obfuscating their use of private APIs. Now you can argue these restrictions are unreasonable but many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers.

Of course it's not arbitrary; It is a direct enforcer of their gatekeeping. Instead of bullshitting, they can just sell two kinds of devices, one with this restriction and one without. The market will show you how many people really want this. Heck, they could do annual voting for each year's new versions, if they can't bother to create two types of phones (which they obviously can). We have seen all the bullshit before in governments, and big tech is not that different. Big anything needs some kinds of democratic checks and balances to keep it from exploiting its users to the very end.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#225

Post by rcoveson » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

tisFine wrote: post #221

fooqux wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers And many of us do . I would never buy a locked-down piece of hardware like that. But I don't think it matters either way what either side wants, because it's what Apple wants that matters. They want to keep their walled garden's walls air tight, and there are apparently enough people that are OK living in that garden that it works. I'm positive tha…

I keep hearing about walled gardens, and not how it’s merely a choice among many. Linux works on tablets and phones. What’s that? It’s a janky mess? Maybe developers could stop looking at the green grass on Apples side of the fence and bring that polish to open-source. But I imagine that will simply devolve into the mess it already is, with flame wars, and figurative genital punching to prove how hardcore one is for…

> There was time when Linux distributions were thought of as walled gardens. Cobble together just the right collection of source for you! Don’t let Red Hat control your mind!

No, that's just a garden. A garden is where a single trusted entity cultivates the plants it wants in the way it wants. It has boundaries, but not necessarily walls.

Walled gardens are a strict subset of gardens. A walled garden doesn't let you go out and forage from the wilds to augment the produce of the garden.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#226

Post by rmah » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

tisFine wrote: post #221

fooqux wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers And many of us do . I would never buy a locked-down piece of hardware like that. But I don't think it matters either way what either side wants, because it's what Apple wants that matters. They want to keep their walled garden's walls air tight, and there are apparently enough people that are OK living in that garden that it works. I'm positive tha…

I keep hearing about walled gardens, and not how it’s merely a choice among many. Linux works on tablets and phones. What’s that? It’s a janky mess? Maybe developers could stop looking at the green grass on Apples side of the fence and bring that polish to open-source. But I imagine that will simply devolve into the mess it already is, with flame wars, and figurative genital punching to prove how hardcore one is for…

Hey, don't hold back, tell us what you really think!

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#227

Post by r00fus » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #215

wffurr wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an opt-in developer mode on iOS. You can compile and install any software you want on your own iPad; no paid Apple developer account needed. There’s even a way to get W^X memory regions on iOS by abusing ptrace: https://saagarjha.com/blog/2020/02/23/jailed-just-in-time-co... It can’t be submitted to the App Store or deployed with TestFlight, but you can build and install an app using that hack just fine on y…

The apps you install expire after a week. You need to reconnect your device to a computer at least once every seven days and reinstall the custom app. Also, you're limited to three apps at a time. It's not actually usable for anything. It's also a completely arbitrary and needlessly-punitive restriction—if I've opted in to installing custom software, why limit me to three apps at a time, and why make them only last a…

Facebook has in the past asked users to deploy their Onavo app using this mechanism for their privacy invading VPN (2015-ish).

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#228

Post by peoplefromibiza » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

skavi wrote: post #214

peoplefromibiza wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, OP is annoyed by the graph because they are comparing different things at different scale. I will use another John Deere metaphor: a Prius can cover a much longer distance on the same amount of fuel, but if I need a John Deere it's because the Prius can't do the same job and I am willing to sacrifice fuel efficiency for raw power. In other words: how much more does the i9 consumes to produce the s…

these are both general purpose CPUs. They do the same job. Maybe if you were comparing a server chip.

Probabky I should have re-quoted what OP posted to make my point clearer

From anandtech: «Should users be interested, in our testing at 4C/4T and 3.0 GHz, the Core i9-9900K only hit 23W power. Doubling the cores and adding another 50%+ to the frequency causes an almost 7x increase in power consumption»

The i9 4C/4T 3Ghz consumes 23 watt

how many FPS can that produce?

the one benchmarked consumes more than 7 times that (it's a 5 GHz 8C/16T), and it's sure it's not 7 times faster (not even close)

They are actually not doing the same job, they ate trying to go as fast as they can.

But what if they measured how much energy each one uses to produce the same score?

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#229

Post by captainmuon » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:16 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #32

jeroenhd wrote: post #24

It's clear AS is a great advancement in general computing, but every piece like this reads as "the hardware is amazing, and it's totally worth it to work around these arbitrary software restrictions". This performance would've been available on iPads years ago if it wasn't for Apple's blanket ban on JIT and the likes. Apple is one of those companies whose hardware I'd love to have if it wasn't for their software and…

Apple’s blanket ban on interpreted code is not arbitrary. It is there to prevent apps circumventing the review process and security model ie. apps pretending to do X during the review process and then doing Y when in use or obfuscating their use of private APIs. Now you can argue these restrictions are unreasonable but many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers.

Malicious apps can already do that. There is nothing (technically) that stops you from e.g. receiving a JSON file and enabling secret features.

The ban on third party browsers and JIT is so that you cannot make fully-featured or competitive apps that don't go through the store. Microsoft tried something similar in Windows 8 (certain DirectX features only available for Metro apps, strict guidelines what a Metro browser can do, ...). This is the reason Safari on iOS is lacking certain features wrt. PWAs, and the reason Flash was banned outright (instead of saying e.g. it has to be made more reliable).

If web apps were as powerful on iOS as they are on Chrome or ChromeOS, then many iOS apps including games would be written as web apps, and Apple would not get their 30% share. If someone would port a JVM or .NET CLR to iOS, then you could sideload those apps and circumvent the app store, too.

Re: Temptation of the Apple: Dolphin on macOS M1

#230

Post by daveidol » Mon, May 24, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #66

fooqux wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> many of us don’t want our iPads or iPhones to be like our computers And many of us do . I would never buy a locked-down piece of hardware like that. But I don't think it matters either way what either side wants, because it's what Apple wants that matters. They want to keep their walled garden's walls air tight, and there are apparently enough people that are OK living in that garden that it works. I'm positive tha…

Like everything in technology, you have a choice. If you want openness at the expense of security and privacy, you can purchase an Android or Windows device. If you want security and privacy more than openness, you buy an iPhone. The Hacker News crowd is unique in that we want to have our cake and eat it too by making the iPhone work more like Android and expressing outrage that such a choice exists. So even though I…

> Like everything in technology, you have a choice. If you want openness [...] you can purchase an Android or Windows device.

Windows Phone is dead. And what happens if Android decides to be like Apple and lock down sideloading more? There is nothing forcing them to continue allowing this "freedom of choice" for consumers if they decide it would be better for their bottom line.

So, what would be the next best choice after Android in that scenario? Basically nothing, because smartphone operating systems are a duopoly.

> So even though I wish iPhone would become more open, I find it strange that people are saying that we must break the iPhones App Store requirement to increase choice, even though that removes the choice to have a safer but locked down experience from the market.

I know many people (including Apple) prefer the iPhone ecosystem to be more locked down, but given the market realities (monopoly) it seems like a compromise would make more sense than forcing everyone to pay 30% and lose out on things like cloud gaming, emulation, "objectionable" content, etc. to cater to the lowest common denominator.

A few possible compromises that Apple likely will never agree to without being forced to via regulation:

- Apple could probably keep the singular App Store model, but lower their fee to closer to cost, add more types of parental controls and/or special "expert only" areas of the store. This way they are more of a neutral hosting platform that still enforces security via app review (frankly, if they had done this to begin with, people probably would have let the whole singular App Store thing slide).

- Apple could allow alternate payment processors and let the user decide if they want the convenience of Apple Pay vs alternatives. This would let the market dictate the real value of their IAP infra. (Hell - at least let subscription apps link to their web site to purchase if they don't want to do IAP! This seems highly anti-competitive.)

- Apple could allow federated third party app stores to enforce certain levels of spam and security prevention (even off the App Store) - if one of these trusted third party app stores falls short in terms of security they get removed.

- Apple could just go the Android route and allow sideloading, but put it behind a ton of warnings etc. Continued investment in app sandboxing and permission prompts for each and every app would already do a lot to cut down on straight-up malware. Phishing, scams, etc. are already an issue for iPhone users in the browser or email clients (plus we've seen these kinds of things on the App Store as well), so user education on how to deal with these things is already unavoidable.

I think it's fair for us as consumers to demand more from Apple and want both security and freedom with reasonable tradeoffs.