“Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#221

Post by corobo » Fri, May 21, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

AlexandrB wrote: post #6

As an outsider who hasn't used IRC or Freenode in over a decade, this situation is impenetrable. Neither the posts by the Freenode volunteers nor this post by Andrew paint a coherent narrative I can follow (maybe I'm just old). Best I can gather, the flashpoint that triggered this series of events is a dispute over the control of the freenode domain name and DNS servers?

In a weird way I sort of like the drama, reminds me of the old wild westy IRC days haha

A thought occurs -- this is probably the last big IRC network drama

Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#222

Post by Macha » Fri, May 21, 2021, 6:25 PM UTC

neilv wrote: post #208

lonjil wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freenode doesn't have any sort of non-profit. Freenode Ltd was created much later and only for organising Freenode Live. Libera.Chat does have a non-profit, however, according to the announcement.

Looks like this PDPC charity might've been what lilo ended up doing to try to make Freenode sustainable (though my guess is that it didn't "own" Freenode)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freenode#Peer-Directed_Project...

Christel only legally owned anything of Freenode to sell to Andrew Lee because she took it over in the dissolution of PDPC. If PDPC never legally owned Freenode, it would be owned by... Rob Levin's estate? So I think PDPC did own Freenode in some form.

Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#223

Post by wut42 » Fri, May 21, 2021, 6:28 PM UTC

ve55 wrote: post #209

wut42 wrote: post #122

Besides discussing what happened, I wonder what IS going to happen. Right now every staffer introduced by rasengan isn't known by much, seems to be very new to freenode (and even at some times, struggling with managing the services). Some of the new staffers seems to be previous operators of Rizon[1], also known as the 4chan of IRC, which is a dubious move. One of them also seems to have been fired from it[2]. On "Fr…

Worth noting that the Rizon-related tweet that you cited is most definitely false and zero opers have moved or been added that match that criterion recently.

yeah some of them seemed to be previous ops.

Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#224

Post by Macha » Fri, May 21, 2021, 6:28 PM UTC

fastball wrote: post #79

barneygale wrote: post #8

> The former staff leave, destroying the network andits community in the process Baffling lack of self reflection on display. Own your mistakes.

It's not clear (yet) if Lee actually made any mistakes.

Not doing his due diligence in the transaction with Christel as to what she was selling or had to sell appears to be the big one.

Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#225

Post by prawnsalad » Fri, May 21, 2021, 6:31 PM UTC

blibble wrote: post #121

rasengan wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn’t improperly act as you said and was not interested in this situation other than for the benefit of irc. To be clear, I have sponsored so many FOSS projects in the past and it’s pretty common knowledge within FOSS — for example even freenode ;)

he didn't act improperly, you did by implying that he is a neutral party which as your employee/patreon: he isn't

I haven't been employed or sponsored by any of rasengan projects or companies for some time. I have no plans to be involved with any despite offers since then (and not related to this or any other drama related issues). I consider myself equal friends with ex-freenode staff and rasengan. I have also ties with freenode(now libera staff) in closely supporting them with webchat related projects and closely with their former director, Christel.

I had attempted to mediate between both sides because I respected and could see both points of view and thought I could try to help bring both view points inline which almost happened.. until it didn't.

Any attempts in suggesting that I would favour one side over the other is entirely false.

Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#226

Post by smoldesu » Fri, May 21, 2021, 6:34 PM UTC

rasengan wrote: post #142

tptacek wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's the further detail of Handshake, which Lee appears to be deeply involved in, which is a cryptocurrency that in essence claims the DNS roots as its own (part of the marketing strategy of Handshake appears to have been some sort of "airdrop" --- I'm not a cryptocurrency person and may be using that term wrong --- of coins to open source projects; I don't know if that's connected to the FOSS donations Lee keeps…

None of the donations Handshake made (136m) are being claimed as donations I made. The millions I have donated I did both personally and thru a wholly owned company. As I said before, attacking donations is sending a chilling effect in the FOSS community and to sponsors.

> As I said before, attacking donations is sending a chilling effect in the FOSS community and to sponsors.

If you're going to go through the trouble of trying to gaslight your community, the least you can do is conduct a quick grammar check on your official statement and expand "thru" to "through". Maybe these new-age cults are different though, I can't say for sure.

Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#227

Post by prawnsalad » Fri, May 21, 2021, 6:36 PM UTC

M2Ys4U wrote: post #82

This raised my eyebrow a little: >At this point, I reach out to prawnsalad, a known person in the IRC space who has relationships with many people. What Lee neglects to say here is that prawnsalad's work has been sponsored by Lee (via PIA) as far back as 2017.[0] I have no reason to suggest that prawnsalad has acted improperly,[1] but he's not necessarily a disinterested party here. [0] https://kiwiirc.com/blog/Kiwi_…

KiwiIRC has not been sponsored by PIA since 2019. This point is often brought up to drag me into this drama but it has had no bearing for some time.

Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#228

Post by blibble » Fri, May 21, 2021, 6:46 PM UTC

prawnsalad wrote: post #225

blibble wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

he didn't act improperly, you did by implying that he is a neutral party which as your employee/patreon: he isn't

I haven't been employed or sponsored by any of rasengan projects or companies for some time. I have no plans to be involved with any despite offers since then (and not related to this or any other drama related issues). I consider myself equal friends with ex-freenode staff and rasengan. I have also ties with freenode(now libera staff) in closely supporting them with webchat related projects and closely with their fo…

> Any attempts in suggesting that I would favour one side over the other is entirely false.

fortunately no-one has suggested such a thing

Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#229

Post by makomk » Fri, May 21, 2021, 6:47 PM UTC

wut42 wrote: post #219

rasengan wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true. As a single example, conferences cost money to throw - significant money. We did two. The FOSS community loves these events to be clear.

The freenode live conference was another thing not supposed to be "part" of the network. Freenode Ltd was created for the conference purpose, not the network (according to what christel said at the time).

Yes and no? As I understand it, they weren't supposed to be involved in the day to day operation of the network in general, but back in 2016 Private Internet Access' logo (then Andrew Lee's current company) was added to the corner of the main Freenode website and as I recall it was widely discussed at the time that this was part of the deal which funded Freenode Live. Most people didn't care and it remained there until 2021. The Shells logo which was supposedly such an outrageous, unprecedented corporate intrusion into areas of the site sponsors never were never allowed before that everyone needed to jump ship was a direct replacement of that PIA logo. Same location, same overall prominence.

While the details are still a bit fuzzy, a far as I can tell from the outside someone on the Freenode staff seems to have used that logo switch as a pretext to try and upset the status quo and seize more power through a bogus narrative about unprecedented corporate intrusion and a logo suddenly appearing in 2021 where one would never be allowed before, likely including kicking out the then head of staff of the actual IRC network, whilst insisting that it was the other side that was trying to seize more control by obstructing them.

Re: “Setting the record straight on Freenode” [pdf]

#230

Post by mkishi » Fri, May 21, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

Macha wrote: post #212

mkishi wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having a hard time following anything. Andrew claims they brought a lawyer in after their access to the DNS was revoked and their request for that to be undone was denied. They supposedly have had access for 5 years without issues, and according to Tomaw it's something they'd "probably never do anything with." Why should Andrew accept that, even if the only thing Freenode Ltd. owned was the domain and name? If th…

I don't think tomaw was aware that freenode ltd owned anything apart from the freenode live conference, until the legal discussions happened. So from his point of view it would have been a case of "Why should the people we ran a conference with in 2017/2018 have access to our domain?"

That implies christel was the only staff with access to DNS until now and was hiding that fact, since the domain's been registered to Freenode Limited since at least 2018 and they'd have noticed the change had they been accessing it.

I've been reading more into it and it seems that wasn't the case [1], but that just leaves me with more questions.

[1]: https://gist.github.com/realrasengan/f569c5e4727d21eb939fff9...