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I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

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Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#221

Post by josephg »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #160
tshaddox wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, but I just don’t think it makes sense to say that companies who cannot afford to pay market rates for software engineers are experiencing a shortage of software engineers, unless there is something preventing market clearing.

> companies who cannot afford to pay market rates for software engineers are experiencing a shortage of software engineers, unless there is something preventing market clearing By definition, the market rate should involve zero shortage. That said, search costs and regulatory barriers are significant frictions. In the midst of an unforecasted surge in aggregate demand and you have an explicable event.

Good point, but it sounds like you’re disagreeing on the terms, not the ground reality of the situation.

Lots of companies can’t afford to compete with G / Fb / etc for principal engineers. (And many companies who should hire good people cheap out and don’t spend the money.) Thus lots of important, otherwise valuable projects are staffed by people who struggle to take technical responsibility for the tasks in front of them.

This becomes self reinforcing - senior engineers have a lot of market power. They (we) generally don’t enjoy working on projects with mountains of technical debt alongside the processes which have a track record of creating them. “You’re really talented. Why would you work at a bank / corporate?”

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#222

Post by moneywoes »

jrsj wrote: post #40
Tossrock wrote: post #20

> The general rudeness is ridiculous. I once had an interviewer ask me if I was a wizard with GO, C++, Rust, and C over the phone. Then when I said I had some experience with rust, he immediately cursed at me and hung up. > This experience is fairly common. Is it? I've done a fair bit of interviewing on both sides of the table, and can say with complete honesty I've never heard a curse said in anger in any of them. I…

Yeah this sounds more like a crazy anecdote to me. I once had a new CTO come in at a place I’d been working at for about a year and a half, and he refused to interview any candidates that weren’t Muslim (as existing staff were replaced 1 at a time). While this is extremely fucked up, I would be surprised if I could find another tech company in the state where this happened. Cursing at someone for having experience in…

Was this in the US?

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#223

Post by verall »

anchpop wrote: post #204
ditonal wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's basically both. When I graduated with my CS degree, I was _thrilled_ to be offered 50k. Now new grads feel lowballed at 200k TC. So hard not to say that the market hasn't adjusted somewhat. At the same time, part of the reason companies even have to pay so much is because they've made interviewing so damn hard. I personally know many people at great companies like Google and Twitter who are _desperate_ to change…

> Now new grads feel lowballed at 200k TC As a new grad, was I supposed to feel lowballed at getting an offer quite a bit less than that? I know senior devs who make less than that. Is this just for stanford/mit grads?

It's a hyperbole and its not the best advice for a noob to compare to. It's easy for people to remember special cases and then assume it is the norm.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#224

Post by shp0ngle »

This is a barely readable rant.

> Furthermore, if you really want a C++ developer you can just expect a developer to learn C++ on the job if they have any adjacent experience with any other language.

Yeah nope

Any language takes at least 3-5 years to fully master. Sure, the "10 years in X technology" posts are sometimes insane, but... also, there is a real, factual difference between "I worked with technology X once" and "I am working with it for 5 years".

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#225

Post by KhoomeiK »

I honestly don't think pay is an issue in tech, but most of the others the author brings up are valid points. The crux of the issue in my opinion is the fact that NO ONE HIRES JUNIOR DEVELOPERS.

Companies don't want to take on the burden of training junior devs and then complain when there aren't enough senior devs to go around. Obviously it makes sense from a business perspective, but taking a step back, training junior talent in this field should be a top priority for everyone.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#226

Post by taotau »

I've always found the focus on 'languages' in hiring to be a bit odd, and perhaps a hangover from olden times.

Any programmer with enough experience can become competent in any programming dialect fairly quickly. But it's the level of knowledge of specific frameworks relevant to projects that is what we really should be a measure of competence.

Having gone through the job hunting process recently i did find this a bit frustrating.

Ok, you want a 'JavaScript' developer... Thats like walking into a restaurant and saying 'I'll have some food please'. At least some places made the distinction of throwing in React or Vue or Angular somewhere in the posting. Sometimes all three!

What does it mean to have X years experience in node ? I use npm all the time, does that count ? I assume they mean the express framework or it's cousins, but almost no job listing mentioning node spelled that out.

Same applies to Java - probably the most widely varied language in terms of use cases and contexts. I've built some web stuff in Spring and Hibernate but I know nothing about its use in embedded systems.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#227

Post by JAlexoid »

sarsway wrote: post #208

I think there's also a power struggle. I've seen so many shitty job offers, where a company thinks it can hire developers like a commodity and have them implement whatever crap idea they have come up with. Unless they have a truly great product at hand, the only ones applying will be the ones desperate for money. But no good developer wants to work on some potential shovel ware that's dead on arrival. There's so much…

To be honest - if the people that are completely clueless about tech are paying well - I'll happily take their money, whip up the easiest thing and leave.

Remember that you pay a mechanic not to tap your car with a hammer, but for the years of experience to know where to just gently tap your car without breaking anything.

We just make more money and can generate a lot more income.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#229

Post by cable2600 »

When I apply I am overqualified for the job. I have too much experience and they don't want to pay me for it. I don't think there is a lack of developers, I think they want Superman at Jimmy Oslen prices. Then they end up hiring a Jimmy Oslen because he has a CS degree and agrees to work for less.

I once applied for CEO of Microsoft and got told I was overqualified because I ran small businesses.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#230

Post by moneywoes »

opportune wrote: post #61
ARandomerDude wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the author is talking about pretty large, well-known companies (e.g., FAANG -- see his first point). Many people applying to these well-known companies are auto-filtered by resume software, which artificially decreases supply. Small and mid-size companies have a different problem: people haven't heard of them and don't know to apply. My company is in this situation. We have a good culture, I think, and pay ve…

Hiring at these companies is very different from the bad examples described here, except for the indexing on degrees (if you don't have extensive experience you're not getting hired without a degree). They don't test trivia and don't typically look for "X years experience with Y framework". I remember seeing that in lots of smaller, lower paying companies' job postings on websites like Indeed but I've never seen that…

Any suggestions for getting a recruiter to message you?
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