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Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

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Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#221
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google's origin story doesn't seem relevant to me, in that Google won because they made radical leaps forward in search quality, compute cost, and and compute scale. That's the myth, but it's pretty far from the reality. Long before Google became such a dominant player, competing search engines had matched or exceeded its quality, compute cost, and ability to scale. > All at a time when the web was exploding: only…

Thanks for the detailed reply. > Long before Google became such a dominant player, competing search engines had matched or exceeded its quality, compute cost, and ability to scale. Could you say more about this? I wasn't involved, but my recollection is that Google pioneered using a zillion low-cost nodes for search. E.g., I remember that AltaVista was using a big iron approach partly as a way of showing off DEC's wa…

> Could you say more about this? I wasn't involved, but my recollection is that Google pioneered using a zillion low-cost nodes for search. E.g., I remember that AltaVista was using a big iron approach partly as a way of showing off DEC's wares. I can believe everybody had to try to keep up, but I am skeptical that Google slowed down enough for everybody else to catch up and/or surpass them.

It's the nature of innovation that something that puts you ahead doesn't create a sustainable advantage (e.g. AltaVista as you highlighted), and there tends to be some marginal advantage for second movers of having the benefit of hindsight. I don't know that anyone knows the why of how this played out in Google's case, basically no one is privy to all the information about each search engine's operations, and to the extent they do, they likely cannot share what they know.

Certainly, on the cost side, Google's approach wasn't entirely novel in the sense that there was a lot of expertise already out there on how to run low-cost nodes at scale. Reverse indexes are actually a pretty "embarrassingly parallel" problem, and Page Rank style algorithms don't really make it much more difficult. In short: once Google demonstrated the value of the approach, it was pretty easy to figure out how to implement it. Google certainly continued to innovate on their data center designs, but if anything were at a disadvantage in terms of rolling it out because they already had a substantial investment in their existing designs that were working pretty well for them. There were also startups like FAST (AllTheWeb) that sprung up after Google and were able to leapfrog Google much as Google leapfrogged its competitors.

In terms of relevancy, we did do double-blind style evaluations of the relevancy of search engines as well as of the consumer behaviour with search engines. What we found was that by 2004-2006, search engine competitors had largely closed the relevancy gap, and in some cases reliably exceeded Google. What we also found though was that it largely didn't matter. Even when presented with terrible results, most of the population would not switch search engines. Indeed, most of the growth in market share amongst search engines came through distribution deals where users would be presented with a search engine as the default.

Now, that's not to say that people didn't switch because they found a search engine to be better. They absolutely did.. but only 10-30% of the users would ever engage in switching behaviour for any reason. Getting those users certainly would help you, but the vast majority of the market was driven by other factors.

Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#222
post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, the author's statement flies in the face of the reality that Chrome's market share at the end of the year was ~1%. ;-)

Chrome was launched in Sep 2008. It's really, really hard to move market share quickly.

It absolutely is. I'm not suggesting that Chrome was a failure by any means. I'm suggesting that it was far from a broad phenomenon that people just clicked "install" when Google launched it.

Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At such a large company? Not really. You can certainly start execution of a strategy, and she did, but it takes a long time to turn such a big boat and fully realize a strategic vision.

If she was doing so well with this vision (mobile/games/social something) why did she only last 21 months? Which products did she launch?

I didn't suggest she was "doing so well with this vision". If anything, I was pointing out that it'd be hard to know if the company would be "doing well" with her vision, given the limited time window.

It was a short stint, and my memory is dull, so I can't remember which products were launched under her watch, but that's the wrong measure in first place (indeed, this was the company from which the Peanut Butter Manifesto sprang). There's really not a lot of question about her changing a lot of things at the company though. I found this article talking about the impact she had after the first four months: https://www.reuters.com/article/stocksAndSharesNews/idUKLNE5...

Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a list of shockers - streamed install process (download a shim of 300kB which will stream the rest) - obviously the chromeless ui - the dynamic status bar (ok that was the point above) - downloads shown below (as cute as the status bar, actually I miss that thing) - something about tab closing that was more regular (no need to move your mouse) - option / printing lean and fast

You forgot speed - both when launching the app and general responsiveness. Launching chrome was shockingly fast - clicking the launcher and having the browser chrome show immediately without the crutch of a loading window was downright revolutionary. Once loaded, Chrome was really snappy (e.g. switching between tabs).

Yes. There would be a chrome process always running in the background, visible in your taskbar on the right.

Chrome had a lot of smart people put in a lot of thought into it. It was a sea of difference when it came out.

Not to mention their original Chrome OS pitch was also amazing.

I really wish we had THAT Google now.

Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Google employee, but AltaVista fanboy previously, been on the internet since the 80s and used all of these as they hit the market, and I remember the joy/excitement as each one hit in those days, like a moon landing. Also a DEC Alpha fanboy :)] No way Altavista or Inktomi offered better result than Google. I was a heavy user of both, having adopted AltaVista mainly for similar reasons that I adopted Google, because…

> But to claim Inktomi and AltaVista matched Google Search results I think is rewriting history, when Google launched, the difference in quality was quite obvious and striking. Yes, that would be a foolish claim. Fortunately I made no such claim. The differences at launch were indeed striking, much as they had been with HITS. That was in 1998. Four years later, at the time the article you linked to was posted, Google…

> That's been tried and failed. The technical difference didn't garner the market share needed to support it. I wouldn't say it is impossible for it to happen, but the odds are long, and ultimately the market largely does not appear to care.

If you look at the queries in GPT-3 that are used to extract structured data, or to synthesize answers, the technical difference is huge, but it just has a high failure rate.

The various vertical search systems are examples of this, but the key to a next-gen system isn't to hand-code such verticals, but to have the AI be able to create an infinite number of them on the fly. Vertical based on Julia code? Yes. Vertical based on Pokemon cards? Yes. Today these things are hand-curated collections.

There's also the general switch from searching for information, to doing things. We've gone from 10 blue links, to answers, to assistive functionality. The current state of assistive functionality is pretty shitty and has a long way to go IMHO.

Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome was an excellent browser when it launched... It might not be able to compete with such a wide gap against all the Chromium based clones out there now, but it was rightfully an amazing experience. Initially its only competition felt like Firefox

a list of shockers - streamed install process (download a shim of 300kB which will stream the rest) - obviously the chromeless ui - the dynamic status bar (ok that was the point above) - downloads shown below (as cute as the status bar, actually I miss that thing) - something about tab closing that was more regular (no need to move your mouse) - option / printing lean and fast

- no horrible mem leaks from tabs like firefox :/

Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But to claim Inktomi and AltaVista matched Google Search results I think is rewriting history, when Google launched, the difference in quality was quite obvious and striking. Yes, that would be a foolish claim. Fortunately I made no such claim. The differences at launch were indeed striking, much as they had been with HITS. That was in 1998. Four years later, at the time the article you linked to was posted, Google…

> That's been tried and failed. The technical difference didn't garner the market share needed to support it. I wouldn't say it is impossible for it to happen, but the odds are long, and ultimately the market largely does not appear to care. If you look at the queries in GPT-3 that are used to extract structured data, or to synthesize answers, the technical difference is huge, but it just has a high failure rate. The…

> If you look at the queries in GPT-3 that are used to extract structured data, or to synthesize answers, the technical difference is huge, but it just has a high failure rate.

Yup. Though there are other systems that arguably had more technical success.

> There's also the general switch from searching for information, to doing things. We've gone from 10 blue links, to answers, to assistive functionality. The current state of assistive functionality is pretty shitty and has a long way to go IMHO.

Yes, I agree there's a great deal of opportunity for technical innovation. I expect to see a lot of it from Google themselves. Just don't kid yourself about the impact of those innovations on market share.

Re: Microsoft bids $44.6B to buy Yahoo (2008)

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can a company be sustainable if it continuously loses more money than it brings in? If I sold a bunch of dollars for 95 cents, my revenue would be astronomical. But does that make it a sound business model? Which is a better business model? An Indy writer with 3000+ people charging $100 a year for a newsletter (Ben Thompson/Stratechery) or a multi million dollar news organization employing dozens of people with h…

The startup model is all about exponential increase of the user base. For example, Amazon was running at little to zero profit until 2015 [1]. Google and Facebook added ads years after they became extremely popular. What you're saying makes perfect sense to me though. [1] https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/net-in...

Once you go public, you can no longer call yourself a “startup”. All of the companies mentioned were public.

Facebook was profitable before they went public. The main reason they went public if I remember correctly, is because they had more than 500 shareholders and it made it more difficult to stay private.

As far as Amazon, Amazon wasn’t GAAP profitable. But it did have positive cash flow and was investing in infrastructure. The companies mentioned above have very slim to no marginal profit. They are literally selling dollars for 95 cents.

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