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FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

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Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#221

Post by Gatsky »

fitzie wrote: post #218
Gatsky wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are banning sale, not use. It seems totally reasonable to say we don’t want anyone to profit from selling highly addictive health damaging products. This is ok. Your argument boils down to “I want the right to poison myself and the convenience to do it at easily accessible retail outlets.” The suggestion that we should restrict healthcare based on the degree to which a person is culpable for their disease is a t…

Eric Garner was killed because of the policies that created the a huge black market for cigarettes in NYC. the absurdity is they are banning flavor which isn't the harmful element. at the same time they are legalizing marijuana including edibles across this country. in a free country you have to allow people the liberty to make poor choices. putting out health information and reasonable restrictions is as far as the…

Two parts to this: - You are highlighting the negative consequences of a ban. There are of course negative consequences to a ban, the black market issue is far from the most important one. But as inidicated in the press release, smoking is a huge health problem causing untold suffering, loss of income, loss of productivity, unnecessary healthcare costs etc etc. These pros and cons of a ban need to be compared in a sane manner.

- The 'Whatabout' argument, whatabout alcohol, marijuana, gambling etc. This is not an argument which can guide us on what to do with tobacco. If the question is, why are we doing something about tobacco but not any other X problems, the basic answer is because tobacco causes a huge burden of problems, and there are only very small upsides to smoking for an individual, and very large downsides for the individual and almost everyone else.

I think there is a lot of research showing that 'putting out health information and reasonable restrictions' doesn't achieve much. If you are agreeing that something rather than nothing should be done, why do something that doesn't really work?

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#222

Post by seriousquestion »

throwawayboise wrote: post #89
__blockcipher__ wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are menthol cigarettes more harmful than regular ones? The menthol just makes it easier to smoke more. Is that the crux of your argument? I find the “company X is targeting [arbitrary subcategory]” argument to be totally asinine btw. Is Krispy Kreme targeting fat people by offering free donuts for people that get COVID-19 vaccines? Lastly there is nothing more patronizing than telling a black person that you’re p…

> Is Krispy Kreme targeting fat people by offering free donuts for people that get COVID-19 vaccines? LOL are they really doing that? That's funny considering that obesity and diabetes are both risk factors for poor COVID-19 outcomes.

Yes, and blue checks on Twitter thought it was great. Meanwhile, 78% of the people hospitalized for Covid-19 are overweight or obese; https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/08/covid-cdc-study-finds-roughl...

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#223

Post by olyjohn »

vvanpo wrote: post #7

On the one hand, I understand that complete prohibition for drugs and alcohol just don't work. But I have a difficult time squaring that against my feelings towards tobacco, where I feel it would be so much easier for me to quit if I wasn't tempted by its availability at every corner store.

What if you could buy individual cigarettes instead of a pack of 20? I feel like 20 is the exact amount you need to smoke to get hooked. If you could go buy like 1 or 2 so that you could enjoy a drink and social smoke with a friend, I feel like the rest of the pack would not be sitting around your house tempting you. Like why the fuck is it illegal for me to buy just 1 cigarette?! Why is it that I need to buy a pack of 20?

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#224

Post by casefields »

ketzo wrote: post #4

I’m extremely in favor of harm-reduction legislation in general, and I think this ban is a good idea overall. Flavors are effective at hooking young people in particular — lots of vaping research has shown that — and so get it outta here. Great. But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird. Like, I get that’s not exactly what’s going on. But.. it’s a little bit what’s going on? I g…

We can trace this paternalistic pattern towards blacks: https://streamable.com/1v4dmm

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#225

Post by ArkanExplorer »

kube-system wrote: post #26
awillen wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because our tax dollars pay for Medicare/Medicaid, so for those people who don't have private insurance, they're saddling society with the costs of their choices. In general I lean libertarian and agree that banning things isn't great, but if you want to make your own choices, you have to bear the costs of those choices. If you want to waive your right to government funded healthcare, then you ought to be able to mak…

Just tax cigarettes to the equivalent or greater than the amount of dollars of burden they place on the healthcare system. Make smokers pay for their own choices. Externalized costs are the root of many seemingly insurmountable societal problems, and most can be fixed by simply accounting for the costs appropriately.

Smokers save Governments money on healthcare, because they die earlier.

"According to the research, a person of normal weight costs on average £210,000 over their lifetime, a smoker just £165,000 and an obese person £187,000."

https://taxfoundation.org/new-study-shows-smokers-and-obese-....

By this logic, there should be no tax (or indeed a subsidy) on cigarettes.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#226

Post by dawnerd »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #153
dawnerd wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedoms are fine until companies are doing whatever they can to make something so addictive it's near impossible for someone to quit without suffering or spending lots of money. It's not just a someone choses to smoke. It's they got hooked, usually by deceptive advertising or peer pressure. Are you also against seatbelts? The police? Building codes?

>"Are you also against seatbelts? The police? Building codes?" Obviously not, but those are different arguments about the concept of "freedom" and government regulation. A more relevant comparison would be about outlawing trans-fats, regulating the size of soda, portion sizes, flavored e-cigs, etc.

They're not really though. We should regulate those as well as companies are also using those to cause addition. I'm even saying that as a fat dude.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#227

Post by whatshisface »

duped wrote: post #117
whatshisface wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not just dramatically increase the taxes so people can still choose to pay a high price if they want to? If you increased the taxes enough to change behavior, that would imply that people who wanted to smoke were made unable to. If all the people who want Menthols after your tax increase can still afford them, then it would not stop them, by definition. Consequently, vice taxes are always either ineffectual, or…

> Consequently, vice taxes are always either ineffectual, or a ban that only applies to the poor. A 10% increase in tobacco price results in a 4% decrease in tobacco demand: https://www.who.int/tobacco/economics/taxation/en/ I don't know if that counts as "ineffectual" in your book, but its not nothing.

Hence the second half of the branch: "or a ban that applies only to the poor."

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#228

Post by BTCOG »

Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL wrote: post #109
atlasunshrugged wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm sympathetic to the government wanting to protect the health of folks (or if you're a cynic like me, making sure that citizens are productive for longer and don't use as many healthcare resources) but this feels super paternalistic. Why not just dramatically increase the taxes so people can still choose to pay a high price if they want to?

Afaik smokers and alcoholics are a blessing for most states. What is additionally spent on them due to healthcare costs is far less than the taxes they pay + the retirement payments they don't receive due to premature death. Funny clip from Yes, Prime Minister https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWxukctTlsY I think choice is good, and taxing appropriately a good measure. Not sure about today's health and safety obsession…

Oh, you can bet your ass that prohibition of alcohol again is coming far sooner than 20-40 years from now. Newsflash, everybody dies! The government should have no rights to infringe on what people want to consume. This is a slippery slope. I am not pro-cigarette here but pro choice of drug consumption. That, and the distinguishing of cigars and pipe tobaccos from that of what a cigarette really is, which is not natural tobacco. Cigarettes are 50% "mother's liquor," which is ground up floor scrap and stem tobacco parts into a nice little puree with added re-uptake nicotine boosting agents. This is then dried into sheets and chopped up to look like ribbons of tobacco. It is not smoking tobacco naturally. Leave the natural cigars and pipe tobaccos in another category. The FDA is going to target all tobacco cleverly as if it's all the same when they know very well that it is not.

You think all these Addy popping, Vyvanse downing, benzo-calming programmers aren't dying way earlier? You are fooling yourselves so hard.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#229

Post by bsder »

gburdell3 wrote: post #98
ketzo wrote: post #4

I’m extremely in favor of harm-reduction legislation in general, and I think this ban is a good idea overall. Flavors are effective at hooking young people in particular — lots of vaping research has shown that — and so get it outta here. Great. But man, “ban menthols because Black people like them” sure feels a little weird. Like, I get that’s not exactly what’s going on. But.. it’s a little bit what’s going on? I g…

Flavors aren't effective at hooking young people, nicotine is. Nobody smokes because it tastes good, menthol or not. This is just another ban that makes some people feel good about themselves while pissing off the rest. I lean pretty far left, but this is the kind of meaningless ban that makes people hate Democrats.

> Flavors aren't effective at hooking young people, nicotine is.

Wrong. Flavors are simply really effective at hooking everybody.

I watched this with a friend of mine who absolutely thought the same way as you. We got him a couple different flavored ones to try--all non-nicotine.

His reaction: "Alright, you win. You have to physically take the strawberry ones away as I will absolutely drain them all."

The flavors allow the industry to find the one that you personally find agreeable. Add nicotine on top of that and you have a device for personalized maximal addiction.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#230

Post by jimmygrapes »

LargeWu wrote: post #133
chmod600 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When paternalistic policies are directed at particular demographics, it is kinda disturbing. I mean, sure, there's a reason. But there always is, and it makes me wonder if a line is being crossed here that will set a bad precedent.

The entire "paternalistic" argument rests on the premise that the choice to smoke, or not, is for most people purely rational, and totally discounts the predatory nature of tobacco companies and the addiction that comes with it. Menthols are targeted at blacks, and especially black children, since the menthol flavoring makes them more pleasant to smoke. Of the 20 million American menthol smokers, 17 million of those…

Could you expand more on how menthol cigarettes are targeted towards blacks? I have lived most of my life in "black culture" and anecdotally the targeting comes from the idea of "we smoke menthol" perpetuating culturally and generationally, not through external targeting or advertising. Maybe it was, once, and it continues as a result of that initial seed? I don't know, but I do know it is not a traditionally target ad campaign or similar. For the record, I also smoke menthols, partially because of that cultural influence.
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