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The real reason to end the death penalty

paulgraham.com

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Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#221

Post by heyparkerj »

lostlogin wrote: post #219
tompccs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this sort of remark is why the left and intellectuals more widely fail at winning politically. Rather than use arguments that are amenable even to people who disagree on the fundamentals, you would rather retain the moral high-ground by refusing even to debate on their terms, thereby failing to actually influence policy (in this case a matter of life and death). If the de…

Why do you think that the left and intellectuals ‘more widely fail at winning politically’? I’m not even sure what that is intended to mean - specifically the bit about intellectuals.

I think it would be fair to interpret that as "failing to change as many minds as they could"

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#222

Post by buyx »

kelp wrote: post #188

I'm glad this is being shared widely, because I agree with it. That said, I have to snark a little about it, because I was in high school, in the 90s, when I came to the same realization about why the death penalty is wrong. So this seems pretty obvious to me. Our justice system is not reliable enough to have the death penalty.

When I was in high school, in the 90s, I also vehemently opposed the death penalty. In English class, I’d be on the anti-death penalty side during debates (I’d be the only one). My country was in the process of abolishing the death penalty at the time, so it was a little more than just an academic proposition.

When I hit my late 30s, my position changed entirely. It’s hard to tell why. I now have no moral qualms about a society choosing to put to death people who are guilty of heinous and depraved acts against others.

That said, I’m reading the March National Geographic, and the pictures of innocent men freed after being sentenced to death have given me pause. Given the apparent scope of prosecutorial misconduct (in the US, but it’s likely to be worse in many other places), it’s hard to entrust the state with this sort of responsibility, especially when there are alternatives that greatly reduce the threat to others, while avoiding the finality of capital punishment.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#223

Post by Y_Y »

ufo wrote: post #192
tompccs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but this sort of remark is why the left and intellectuals more widely fail at winning politically. Rather than use arguments that are amenable even to people who disagree on the fundamentals, you would rather retain the moral high-ground by refusing even to debate on their terms, thereby failing to actually influence policy (in this case a matter of life and death). If the de…

Framing this as a left vs right issue is an USA-centric way to frame the question. Consider how the US is basically the only country in the american continent that still goes ahead with capital punishment. Most other countries in the continent, from all kinds of political orientations, have either banned capital punishment outright or haven't executed anyone in more than a decade.

Referring to "the American continent" is a very South American thing to do. I think in the US they consider themselves to be sharing a continent with just Mexico and Canada.

Furthermore I think you don't go far enough. Around the world, abolishing the death penalty seems to be a mark of high development, apart from Japan (and arguably China and India) there aren't any highly developed nations that are still killing people.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#224

Post by r00fus »

ehnto wrote: post #64
mettamage wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, from a persuasion point of view I agree. But from a "trying to understand another human" point of view, I'd recommend you to read the Wikipedia page on ethics [1]. My own education on the topic: a course in college (as a business student) and watching some of the Harvard lectures on ethics [0]. IMO ethics courses teaches people to gain a more fine-grained vocabulary on explaining their own positions and underst…

The trap you are both falling into is the thought that political discussions centre around trying to understand the other persons point of view. It is almost always the other way around, one person trying to persuade an unwilling party that they are wrong. So as the poster said, as right as you are, you would still lose the political argument if that was how you tried to argue for your view. You can be correct all da…

Persuasion in the current bipolar political environment is way overrated.

You're not going to persuade a Q follower or BLM protester about the opposing viewpoint.

Polemics in this realm are far more effective.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#225

Post by [deleted] »

Y_Y wrote: post #223
ufo wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Framing this as a left vs right issue is an USA-centric way to frame the question. Consider how the US is basically the only country in the american continent that still goes ahead with capital punishment. Most other countries in the continent, from all kinds of political orientations, have either banned capital punishment outright or haven't executed anyone in more than a decade.

Referring to "the American continent" is a very South American thing to do. I think in the US they consider themselves to be sharing a continent with just Mexico and Canada. Furthermore I think you don't go far enough. Around the world, abolishing the death penalty seems to be a mark of high development, apart from Japan (and arguably China and India) there aren't any highly developed nations that are still killing p…

[deleted]

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#226

Post by HWR_14 »

kelp wrote: post #188

I'm glad this is being shared widely, because I agree with it. That said, I have to snark a little about it, because I was in high school, in the 90s, when I came to the same realization about why the death penalty is wrong. So this seems pretty obvious to me. Our justice system is not reliable enough to have the death penalty.

Part of the issue is that we divide the trial into (guilty or not) and (determine punishment if guilty). There's no 95% chance of guilty, go to jail and 100% chance of guilty, death penalty.

But, ultimately, some people are going to go away forever. People like Manson are never going to get released. What's the big difference between the death penalty and life imprisonment with no parole that attenuates the error in the conviction process.

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#229

Post by dane-pgp »

slibhb wrote: post #196
StavrosK wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Justice, by which I mean reciprocity, is an end in itself. You misspelled "revenge" there.

The distinction between revenge and justice is that justice is carried out by a disinterested third party.

If the third party carrying out the "justice" is merely implementing the vengeful wishes of the most irrational party (i.e. the victim or their family) then I wouldn't say they are "disinterested" in any practical sense.

Also, by the supposed logic of "restoring natural harmony", if someone kills your family, should you be allowed to kill theirs?

Re: The real reason to end the death penalty

#230

Post by im3w1l »

djoldman wrote: post #179

On the subject of deterrence: If someone commits a premeditated crime carrying a guideline sentence of {20 years in State A, vs 30 years in State B} do we really think that they're more likely to commit the crime in State A? It's my intuition that for the most part, people committing crimes aren't thinking about potential repercussions, much less measuring them. I mean is someone thinking "Oh, only 10 years? I'll do…

It's my belief that the sentence length affects crime rate indirectly by affecting the collective unconscious. For instance if you see someone who did his time talk about his life in retrospect on the telly that affects you. When you see the (lack of) wrinkles on his face, that affects you. When you uncle Joey misses your birthday bash because he is still in jail, that affects you etc.
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