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Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

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Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#221

Post by __aintit__ »

shireboy wrote: post #172
whiddershins wrote: post #89

In my opinion the main problem for religion right now is the failure to explain their arguments at the highest intellectual level, publicly, consistently. Once I was exposed to better theology and philosophy of Christianity I was blown away. Edward Feser’s ‘The Last Superstition’ helped open this up. I have no idea why the level of discourse is on average so primitive, I think church leaders have been systematically…

I haven't read Feser, but I do agree there is a huge gap between, say, the theology and level of discourse of C.S.Lewis and Tolkein and popular megachurch pastors. Culturally it's interesting to me - all but the most die-hard atheist will likely see some value and truth in Tolkein's work even if they disagree with his theology and choice of church. They may not agree, but would respect him. Where are today's Inklings…

>Where are today's Inklings?

As someone who has read and studied the Inklings extensively, I think the fact that these few misfit professors had such an impact is astounding in that they were able to do it.

To be clear - their level of thought and depth was immense and powerful. All impact is merited. I think these sorts of collections of intellectual individuals are not as rare as we might think; they just don't break out into wider society in the way (in particular) Lewis and Tolkien did.

The average person of today (anecdotal citation here) is less read, less cultured, less knowledgeable of language, history, religion, philopsophy, and literature than the average person of yesteryear. Maybe this has something to do with it.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#222

Post by jordanmorgan10 »

It's interesting to read a HN thread regarding theology. It seems there is quite an interest in the topic, and affirms another thing I tend to see: That many in this field identify as a Christian but don't really seem interested in saying so unless it's in a thread which expressly mentions it. Maybe it's my own bias and I'm just viewing it that way, as a Christian myself, as it feels hard to talk about it within the tech sphere with nuance and empathy.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#223

Post by AuthorizedCust »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #192
justaman wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It goes beyond fairy tails. There is a sense of community that (for the most part) only religion has been able to maintain in the information age.

Yes, we’ve had to create our own social fabric that a church would’ve been, but as our loved ones and friends are spread across the country and world, a weekly gathering would do us little good. The challenge is to build community without the judgement that comes along with the beliefs required to attend a church. We strongly support LGBTQ+ folks, the idea of ethical non monogamy, people who elect to be child free, e…

> ...without the judgement that comes along with the beliefs required to attend a church.

You're responding to fundamentalism and certain non-fundamentalist denominations that take fundamentalist views on selected issues.

Look at recent denominational schisms: Episcopal Church (United States), the United Methodist Church (resolution is on the table but delayed due to the pandemic), etc. The people on the right side of history and the church are winning, and the bigots and fundamentalists are splitting off.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#224

Post by nonotreally »

justaman wrote: post #186
toomuchtodo wrote: post #145

Late 30s here who was dragged to church by parents and grandparents but who isn't exposing our kids to religion. It’s pretty straightforward for us: you don’t need fairy tales to be a good person and to come to terms with death (which comes for everyone). “Be happy, be kind.” If others choose to observe, that’s their choice.

It goes beyond fairy tails. There is a sense of community that (for the most part) only religion has been able to maintain in the information age.

That's a lie that religions keep perpetuating. Many social groups exist that are just as fulfilling.

My gym for example is full of people who actively work in the community, help each other and gather multiple times per week to better themselves and encourage their community.

Religion has nothing to offer that secular society cannot offer.

It does offer a lot of downsides though.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#225

Post by [deleted] »

whatshisface wrote: post #205
sarabad2021 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see no issues with Christianity from a philosophical standpoint. It explains things which our beyond our natural/physical world. Those things impact how we live in this world. I'm curious what you mean in your statement, please unpack your claim.

The parent is referring to the (actually, legitimately, really bad) philosophy that you can find in the most puffed-up theology books. It comes from the same process of domain envy that makes some philosophers put the worst math ever in their papers, except it started several hundred years earlier. To cut one slice through it, I can point you to a page of 100% fallacious arguments[0] that only survived as long as the…

[deleted]

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#226

Post by AuthorizedCust »

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #174
AuthorizedCust wrote: post #102

So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn…

And what did you gain out of it? I grew up in a non-fundamentalist Christian cult (catholic) and it was at best a massive waste of time. I detest that part of my life.

> it was at best a massive waste of time

Why? Can you expand on that?

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#227

Post by gpderetta »

mcculley wrote: post #155
gpderetta wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might take my kids there. Then again I also took them to see Santa. Unfunny quip aside, it is a social gathering and it is undeniably positive for the community.

That really depends on the church. Many flavors of religion are a net negative for the community.

Possibly. I was mostly talking about the specific mild flavour of Roman Catholicism practised by church we frequent here in London.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#228

Post by CivBase »

Freak_NL wrote: post #129
CedarMills wrote: post #93

As a believer and someone who attends church regularly, this is sad but not unexpected. From my own personal experience - if the church cannot answer questions clearly, their members will look for answers somewhere else. A lot of churches unfortunately are so elementary in their teaching or turn to "feel good preaching" (see Elevation Church). The longterm effect is that a person ends up being tired of getting the sa…

There does not seem to be a shortage of church variety to choose from. It's not about churches not being able to answer questions clearly; the reality is just that fewer people believe in gods. For comparison: in the Netherlands we already dipped below 50% in 2017, and the number of religious people keeps dropping steadily. In 2019 the remaining religious minority was composed of 20.1% Roman Catholics, 14.8% protesta…

> There does not seem to be a shortage of church variety to choose from.

I think this is a deceiving metric. Most churches are less places of worship or religious education and more social clubs dressed up in religious phrases and iconography. There are so many of them because each is designed to appeal to a particular social group, but they all feature a very similar watered down message that just reinforces the congregation's preexisting beliefs. They tend to focus less on education and more on community events, activism, fundraising, and growing their community - just like any other social club.

If you're looking for a church that genuinely teaches its congregation, that's much harder to find. They don't tend to be as successful in terms of growth or wealth. To teach someone, you must either add to what they know or challenge something they think they already know. Most people don't like being challenged - they'd rather go somewhere that reinforces what they already think or just ditch religion altogether.

It's no surprise that the social club churches are disappearing. Even the least devoted members of a church congregation feels bad leaving, just as they might feel bad cancelling a gym membership they never actually use. But their kids often have no such attachments.

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#229

Post by whatshisface »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #143
psychometry wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most "solid" theology is just shaky philosophy, though.

It's a question of whether or not you buy into the set of assumptions. If you do, you can avail yourself of any one several strong, coherent, self-consistent philosophies and world-views, which many of history's great minds have reasoned about and scrutinized. Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Protestantism, Judaism, Islam: all of them spend a lot of time on this stuff. It's the on-the-fly, off-the-cuff, brand new, modern theo…

If you're not allowed to change the orthodoxy, then the contribution of that generation's greatest minds would by definition be heterodoxies. So what you are really saying is that we should expect the most-patched-up theology to be found in the most recent versions. :)

Re: Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

#230

Post by throwaway0b1 »

This may be a very bad idea.

But as (in the words of the at-present top comment) a fundamentalist adhering to scriptural literalism (aka a conservative Lutheran) [addendum: who does not hate everyone], I feel compelled to offer to answer questions anyone might have for me, so AMA.

I don't really want to individually respond to everything throughout the rest of the comments, but I will begin by saying that most churches have either very little by way of actual bible-based doctrine, or very little by way of in-depth theology. (Prosperity gospel/megachurches fall in the latter, a decent portion of other churches - eg. the Roman Catholic Church - fall in the former.)

Responses will be sporadic throughout the day, I'm a bit busy at the moment, but I'll do my best to get to it.

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