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Cancel We The Web? (2020)

wetheweb.org

221–230 of 280 posts

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#221
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the agreed-upon way of handling this is revealing personal opinions on difficult subjects very carefully to gauge the reactions, and only proceeding if doing so wouldn't disturb the peace more than what the discussion would be worth. There are of course a ton of potentially difficult subjects, as the ever expanding "Culture War" Wikipedia article shows[1]. But after thinking about it for a bit, this approach…

Treading carefully is probably our best bet, but it's very difficult and error prone. There are no militant atheists, in any reasonable sense of the word. If mentioning facts about the world is seen as criticism of religious people, that's a big problem. We know vaccines work, because our best research shows that. It's not controversial and we should be free to mention it. Huge parts of many religious text are factua…

Virtually no one is an atheist, if you take the Sapiens definition of religion: “a system of human laws and values, which is founded on a belief in a super human order." (Super human orders are not the product of human whim or human agreements, unlike e.g. the laws of soccer) https://sites.google.com/site/taborsapiens/home/10-the-law-o...

If you read the book it’s clear communism, fascism, democracy and capitalism are really religions too. They require belief in a super human order - a set of laws that exist without backing in science or human agreement. E.g. “All men are created equal”

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#222

A different take: Microsoft, Oracle, et. al. waged a war against OSS in the 90s. They went as far as using mental illness as a weapon against the community (equating participation in the commons as an equivalent to mental illness). It’s not a coincidence the class of human that weathered the storm looks like Stallman, Linus, ESR, et. al. That’s what it took. The toxicity in these communities is a result of what was l…

Who do you think is behind cancel culture? Social justice is like the Anti-Life Equation for bigcorps and other established institutions who are incensed that somewhere nerds are having fun without their official sanction.

My eyes were opened when I heard a podcast in which a prominent cancelista put forth the idea that federated protocols were a Bad Thing because by requiring implementations to be protocol compatible, federated services caused "vendor lock-in" and stifled innovation. I thought, what in the seven hells is this? It's like something a professional propagandist for single-vendor services (think Slack, Salesforce, etc.) might say. Up there with Steve Ballmer declaring the GPL a cancer.

Then the burblings of other open-source SJ types began to make more sense. Coraline Ada Ehmke declaring that the Open Source Definition made sense when the enemy was corporations, but now that the enemy was the fascist Trump administration it needed to change. The implication being that bigcorps were no longer the enemy, even though a hallmark of fascism is a corrupt collusion between the state and industry. "We have always been at war with Eastasia" tier cognitive dissonance. Anyway, open source was intended to protect users' freedom, not to fight a particular enemy.

There was another one, I forgot who, who said something like in order to be "real open source" in $CURRENT_YEAR you can't just put the code out there, You need to have a code of conduct, and a code of conduct enforcement board. He lamented the fact that open source projects did not implement the standard practices used by corporate HR departments. Which, if you need to have an HR department to be legitimate open source then that limits legitimate open source participants to corporations only. I'm counting nonprofits like the Linux Foundation as "corporations" because they require (large amounts of) money, infrastructure, a legal team, and yes, an HR department in order to function. No Linus Torvalds could come along and start a project used by billions in the environment they want to create. It would have to go through the Proper Channels and be certified as anti-racist and free of toxic masculinity by the Proper Authorities. Like many forms of regulatory compliance, it's a filter to ensure only the big players can play, but unlike regulation there isn't even a nominal accountability to the public. Scientology style "dead agenting" tactics will suffice when governments are too slow to act.

I want to believe that SJ in open source is for the greater good, but it looks far too much like a weapon to be wielded by the powerful against the users and developers open source was supposed to protect.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His argument wasn't difficult to understand, and I accepted it in good faith. He believed the term "sexual assault" should be reserved for those cases where content was affirmatively withdrawn, and physical violence was used. He believed that the broadening of term would lead people to believe someone accused of "sexual assault" was guilty of the most morally reprehensible version of the crime imaginable (formal with…

I disagree with your interpretation, so clearly it's not as simple as you are laying it out to be. I did interpret it the same as this: > In this specific case, he believed that his friend hadn't committed "sexual assault", under his preferred definition, and found it more plausible that his friend thought the victim was willing, or was lead to believe she was. but I disagree on how I think he is describing sexual as…

I did not imply that he said, or believed, that what Minsky did was "right", and I fail to see how your interpretation is any different than mine.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#224
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a whole gaping chasm between Dave Chappelle - a world-famous comedian - making what is clearly a joke on a stage and some anonymous person posting edgy white supremacist shit 'for the lulz'. In case you haven't been following the news, that's the kind of radicalization tool that resulted in a not insignificant amount of the population believing that QAnon was real and that storming the capitol and killing a p…

There's certainly a chasm, but is there anything in the chasm beyond mere social status? I don't want to strawman your argument, but that really seems to be the core; it's a joke if a world-famous comedian says it, but "edgy white supremacist shit 'for the lulz'" if an anonymous nobody does.

It’s not so much about what is in the chasm, but what lies at the edges. Dave Chappelle has a strong incentive to keep his jokes edgy but somewhat acceptable within the society he makes a living in. The anonymous edgelord posting neo-Nazi Pepes on 4chan has no such constraint.

It’s very easy - and indeed I’ve seen it with my own eyes when I was younger - for communities that accept jokes about minorities or LGBT people to very quickly devolve into open fantasizing about actual physical harm of such people. Back in the early 2000’s gaming forums were rife with that kind of supercharged self-radicalization.

Having grown up in South America, I take the ‘jokesters’ wearing t-shirts with slogans such as ‘Pinochet did nothing wrong’ and ‘make leftists afraid of helicopters again’ extremely seriously. Several of my parents’ acquaintances were ‘disappeared’ by the last dictatorship. My dad - a student at the time who wasn’t involved in any kind of political activism - shaved his beard because he was afraid he’d be mistaken for a ‘commie’ and jailed or worse. All you need is a small percentage of idiots actually believing the ‘joke’ for real life consequences to follow.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#225
post #191
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a whole gaping chasm between Dave Chappelle - a world-famous comedian - making what is clearly a joke on a stage and some anonymous person posting edgy white supremacist shit 'for the lulz'. In case you haven't been following the news, that's the kind of radicalization tool that resulted in a not insignificant amount of the population believing that QAnon was real and that storming the capitol and killing a p…

It just sounds like you are gatekeeping to me

What exactly am I gate keeping?

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Treading carefully is probably our best bet, but it's very difficult and error prone. There are no militant atheists, in any reasonable sense of the word. If mentioning facts about the world is seen as criticism of religious people, that's a big problem. We know vaccines work, because our best research shows that. It's not controversial and we should be free to mention it. Huge parts of many religious text are factua…

Virtually no one is an atheist, if you take the Sapiens definition of religion: “a system of human laws and values, which is founded on a belief in a super human order." (Super human orders are not the product of human whim or human agreements, unlike e.g. the laws of soccer) https://sites.google.com/site/taborsapiens/home/10-the-law-o... If you read the book it’s clear communism, fascism, democracy and capitalism ar…

Atheism is the lack of belief in any gods. You can be religious without any gods. An atheist can be religious.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#227
> “Stallman… is a hard man to like. He is driven, often impatient. His anger can flare at friend as easily as foe. He is uncompromising and persistent; patient in both.”

I advocate for the four freedoms. I think a large chunk of open source development and a large chunk of free software development are essentially a programmer's take on the scientific method.

However-- and bear with me here-- I don't want to be an insufferable asshole to my friends.

Finally-- and again, bear with me-- I don't want to regularly communicate with core allies who are insufferable assholes.

Where is the place for me?

lights dim, string intro for the aria

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, you knew what the meaning of "toxic" was all along, but you pretended to not know what the meaning was in order to make some kind of point? I would prefer a direct discussion. Yes, I knew all along that "toxic" means "dangerous". When we're not talking about eg. plutonium, we at least borrow the seriousness of that use. It's a very strong word. > [...] his actions are to call people stupid over their religious…

Freedom of religion is a fundamental human right (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human... ), and if you're in US you have 1-st amendment there. For this reason, verbally harassing people for their faith is IMO more toxic than "I disagree with you" or even "I disagree with you and I think you're stupid".

The UN humans rights are not law in the USA. The first amendment says that the government can't make laws about religion. In the USA, people are free to have whatever religion they want, which is great.

Pointing out that all available research points to some religious claim being wrong is not harassment.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#229
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the highly publicized Army–McCarthy hearings of 1954, and following the suicide of Wyoming Senator Lester C. Hunt that same year, McCarthy's support and popularity faded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy According to the theory, when articulating preferences individuals frequently tailor their choices to what appears socially acceptable. In other words, they convey preferences that differ from what…

I certainly agree that a high- profile suicide or equally heinous act would accelerate cancel culture into its demise but surely waiting for catastrophic disaster like that is not a realistic strategy.

The moment comes from a mortal sacrifice more often is desirable for certain. Examples of the top of my head are Thích Quảng Đức [0], and Tarek el-Tayeb Mohamed Bouazizi [1].

0. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4...

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi

2.

Re: Cancel We The Web? (2020)

#230
post #186
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always curious about this line of thinking. What exactly do you think people are gaining by - say - denouncing sexism or other kinds of awful behavior? What's so wolfish about that?

People who denounce sexism because they've got a moral framework or intuition that tells them sexism is bad are principled actors. People who denounce sexism because they're trying to get likes on social media, because it grants them social approval, or because they've made a job out of it are acting out of self-interest. Not everyone who is in the second group knows what their motivations are: people usually come up…

I understand your argument, but wouldn't be the opposite be true too? Aren't RMS's comments defending Minsky just a form of 'clout seeking' and being argumentative for arguments sake?

If people are making the case that RMS is neurodivergent and therefore his behavior should be tolerated, shouldn't we be making exactly the same argument about the people you put on the latter group? Or is it only people we agree with that get the benefit of being 'neurodivergent'?

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