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Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

nytimes.com

221–230 of 410 posts

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#221
post #83

A huge generational change is that young people can just google "best X" for every life decision instead of caring about what they're exposed to organically. What job to do, city to live in, how to dress, etc. They can also find a community and detailed guides for achieving pretty much anything they want, so the special in-group knowledge isn't a barrier anymore. Anyone familiar with the whole tech interview prep cul…

This is a really big deal for things like personal finance or financial independence that required knowledgeable networks to understand important early decisions and the right thing to do.

Now I can read about this stuff on reddit and learn the basics of how everything works.

A bright kid with an internet connection can leverage that even if they're in a social network or community that doesn't understand any of these things.

The remaining problem is unknown unknowns. If you don't know what exists, it can be hard to know what to ask. You can't search 'Best X' when you don't know what X is. If you're online though, you may be able to see someone mention it and go from there.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you have a BS, you'll still need to get recommendations from professors you likely have not talked to in a decade (and also take the GRE).

I suspect this is not generally accurate. I have an MS in CS and had neither recs nor a GRE score

Where did you go?

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#223
I still don't understand why college degrees are necessary for the majority of jobs in the US other than a surplus of college educated folks. This is particularly problematic given the high cost of education.

The entire post secondary education system in Germany is focused on specialization in a given field of study (at universities) or vocational training. The advantage here is that there is no financial penalty for choosing the wrong path, only missed opportunity cost due to time spent.

I completed my secondary school in Germany at a typical Gymnasium (the highest tier of the three major secondary school types). Note that my parents did not attend college and aren't wealthy. Around 8th grade my school curriculum exceeded their knowledge. I attended a private liberal arts college in the US as an international student where I relied on (private) scholarships and (private) loans [international students cannot get subsidized loans -- generally interest rates are high and interest accumulates even while enrolled in school].

The only reason why I chose to attend university was because I wanted to gain an advanced understanding of mathematics and I aspired to one day become a college professor (this has since changed of course).

Despite my school being very highly ranked and my hard work producing good academic results it simply did not have the brand reputation to unlock opportunities such as even being invited to phone screens. I had to take a roundabout way to get into my career and instead work my way up from less desirable positions. This focus on brand for academic institution is also something you do not generally find in Germany where the criteria is typically the binary question of whether or not you have a particular degree in a particular subject area (though again the vast majority of jobs do not require a degree).

Too often I observed the candidate with a Bachelor's at ~3.0 GPA from say Stanford being preferred over the candidate with a ~4.0 from a lesser known but equally rigorous institution.

Of course this focus on brand continued beyond college. I quickly learned that a less desirable / impactful role at a top company opens more doors than top positions at unknown companies.

Call me pessimistic, but I do not advise people to attend college in the US unless they can attend schools with a very strong brand and extensive alumni network in their desired professional field.

Looking back at my education my secondary education in Germany was more formative and critical than my college education in the US. While I did have the opportunity to take advanced coursework in college here in the US it did not prepare me for generic jobs not specific to my field of study (and barely even is an asset in my profession). I believe we need to improve high school education in this country and reverse the trend of requiring a college education for the majority of jobs.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#224
post #85
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have found Community Colleges to be the perfect place for this actually. Community College classes are MUCH cheaper, and are even more so if you don't take the class for credit (where I went, tuition was $20 for a 1 credit class for non-degree seekers. No that was not a typo, it was Twenty USD for the entire class). Community College professors don't do research, so they are usually focused much more on teaching cl…

The problem with community colleges is that you completely miss out on any meaningful networking. As long as all the best students see it as beneath them, you'll have a hard time meeting people in a community college who can actually help your career

If you insist on a pyramidical social structure, 99% of the population will never meet or network with the top people in their field anyway, and as such a school that prevents them from doing what's impossible anyway yet saves money is wise, especially if the alternative is spending ten times as much on a pale imitation of what the people at the top would get but they'll never associate with them anyway.

Classic microeconomics vs macroeconomics problem. Individuals can always improve but you can't extend "just pull yourself up by your bootstraps harder" to an entire civilization. An individual benefits personally by going to Yale, if they can. You can't fix a national education system by making the official strategy telling kids their only hope is getting into Yale. Especially if there's an alternative that actually works for the masses, like CC.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"from a lower or even mid-tier college is a worthwhile investment " I always found this idea amazing, we just accept that univerities are not really there for education but instead a giant sorting machine to separate plebs from (rich/talented/dilligent/take your pick). They don't work like a normal market, there best company grows their production, and supplies millions with the best goods. Oxford/Harvard take their…

>They don't work like a normal market, there best company grows theur production, and supplies millions with the best goods. Oxford/Harvard take their miniscule intake of a fraction of a percent every year, and opening door to unwashed masses would destroy their brand. This is exactly how high-end luxury good markets work.

I agree, the unwashed masses do destroy most of everything. Granted Harvard is not what it used to be, same as an MS is not what it used to be, a Phd is not what it used to be. In the past the quality was even higher, more akin to an artisan workshop than whatever mass-anything you could conceive of.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, the things you call out don't seem to be the case in the Canadian public university that I attended, the University of Waterloo. > why are all degrees four years? UW offers three-year degrees. A four-year degree typically gets you an Honours Bachelor degree, whereas a three-year degree is a General Bachelor. On a resume it'd still be written as "B.A.", and the reviewer would have to know to inqui…

>UW offers three-year degrees. Not just in Canadian universities, I believe it is pretty common and the parent commenter is just not aware. I went to Georgia Tech, a public school in Atlanta. While the "planned" curriculum is supposed to fit in 4 years, the median is actually around 4.5-5 years. But there are some people who manage to graduate in 3.5 or 3 years (I know 2 of those personally). In most schools in the U…

>Of course some classes have prerequisites and time overlaps

One semester is designed with a particular set of prerequisites in mind. Most times, one prerequisite holds back every other class on the career path. So, if you don't take that one class that semester, you can only take the elective courses until you take that class. Which means that when you run out of electives, what was supposed to be one semester becomes two, with the only course you qualify for in the second being the one you missed (this isn't necessarily true for the spring semester, since you could take the missing class during the summer.)

This is fine, but it leads to a disparity; taking on more classes than the recommended workload has a pretty linear correlation with decreased time to a degree (though the problem still persists that you don't qualify for your next classes); but taking on less than the recommended often jumps straight to doubling the time needed for a degree, with very little room in-between.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the parent post refers to all of the different majors taking the same time.

Can you get four years worth of government-backed tuition money out of a student when the degree only takes. a year?

As other comments have pointed out, many colleges do not require you to stay for four years if you can finish faster. But most students do not want to, or are not capable of, taking twice the normal course load. Not everything is a conspiracy by the elites to extract more money from the masses.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#228
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iirc, it was even lower when I went. And this is probably the most common mistake I see made about MIT, etc.; the lack of acknowledgment that the financial aid within top schools runs deep , which simply isn’t as true for smaller or less popular schools. Going to a “top tier” school can, depending on your financial situation, actually cost you roughly what a state school would. You can argue there are too many hoops…

> the lack of acknowledgment that the financial aid within top schools runs deep, I think you're confusing depth and breadth. It's like the Harbor Freight coupon. Everyone gets 20% off with a few exclusions. But the people paying less than 80% (to continue the Harbor Freight metaphor) are few and far between.

No; that's completely wrong. For example, the median value of scholarships for Yale's class of 2023 with family incomes under $65,000 was $76,925.

https://admissions.yale.edu/affordability-details

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#229

I sense that the fundamental purpose for going to College has changed from "getting an education" to "building your brand" as an individual. I don't work in Human Resources, but as a software developer I do spend a lot of time around my company's recruiters and I'm involved in the hiring process. A candidate's alma mater has an outsized impact on the likelihood they will advance to the next step of the hiring process…

> Most people people don't realize just how much name recognition matters when sifting through resumes. I think most people do realize it, which is why we're seeing what's being written about in the article. People realize if you merely want to be educated, you can do that for cheap or free anywhere, but nobody in HR screening resumes cares if you're educated. They care that you have name-brand pedigree. I remember f…

> I remember fighting for a candidate who I thought was super smart and could get things done, but he was from a mid-tier State school and not from Stanford and that was the end of it.

If HR has anything to do with how engineers are selected there's something wrong with the company.

They are there to schedule interviews and take care of the paperwork.

Re: Interest surges in top colleges, while struggling ones scrape for applicants

#230

Well, of course. Going to college during the epidemic is not cost effective. Many colleges are trying to charge full on-campus prices while delivering "distance learning". Better to wait a year and get the full experience.

I prefer distanced learning. It's probably my school but the majority of the comp sci students are slackers and drag the people who do this stuff down. As shown by the fact that it's harder for these lazy students to mooch of the actual hard working ones. Really hard to pretend being someone's friend with an email versus sitting next to the smart kid.

Which school?

Honestly, it sounds like you should transfer to an institution that's a better fit for you.

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