Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers • Hacker News Board

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#221

Post by secondcoming » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 11:06 PM UTC

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #96

lisper wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why a central authority works better. But it seems to be manifestly true if you look at human history that it works better once you try to scale society beyond the tribe. (At least by my personal quality metric. But I acknowledge that I am strongly biased by the fact that I'm a rich white guy in a society dominated by rich white guys, so I'm definitely open to alternative ideas. But unfettered free speec…

>I don't know why a central authority works better. But it seems to be manifestly true if you look at human history that it works better once you try to scale society beyond the tribe. Hundreds of millions of people who have been murdered in wars organized by central authorities would probably have a different opinion. > The burden of covid, for example, is falling disproportionately on people of color in no small me…

Americans seem to think that the world was a harmonious, peaceful nirvana until the 'white man' set sail. It's a failure of their education system.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#222

Post by edbob » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 11:06 PM UTC

alwayseasy wrote: post #208

edbob wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing will pour more gas on that fire than censorship. I basically agree with your analysis on that point, and I'm resentful of Trump for helping to create that problem. But I consider big tech censorship to be the first step to an inevitable end of democracy, "destroying it in order to save it".

It's a really hard problem because the "anti-censorship" argument is also used by the side that wants to destroy democracy once in power. Historically, Americans have succeeded at destroying ideologies by grossly impeding on free speech and other constitutional rights when there was political will. Currently, I'm not sure there is a sign of political will to restore democratic norms by suppressing white-supremacism.

> Historically, Americans have succeeded at destroying ideologies by grossly impeding on free speech and other constitutional rights when there was political will.

What is the history here?

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#223

Post by rossdavidh » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 11:06 PM UTC

mcguire wrote: post #212

Playing the devil's advocate here: is this really "exceptional power"? Before the Internet, fringe, extremist political movements had essentially the same options as every other minor interest group: local groups, physical, mailed newsletters, maybe magazines, booths at whatever kind of group meetings, and maybe news media coverage. All of those options still exist. So the modern state of things hasn't removed anythi…

Well, before the internet, the analogous groups were the TV networks. Those networks were, for sure, likely to ban any of these groups, or if they did put a microphone in front of them, they edited the interview to make sure they looked bad.

But nobody tried to claim, that the three major TV networks did not have exceptional power. Of course they did.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#224

Post by Acrobatic_Road » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 11:07 PM UTC

daniellarusso wrote: post #51

threatofrain wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the CEO of Parler, banks and payment vendors, law firms, text and mail services also cancelled on them. This is why Parler also motivates discussion of alternative currency.

What is the product? What do they take payment for?

premium subscriptions, donations, etc

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#225

Post by ipsocannibal » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 11:07 PM UTC

kondro wrote: post #127

ipsocannibal wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pick any country without an extradition treaty with the US and buy rack space there. Parler was easily nuked because its tech was amateur hour not because US cloud providers rule the internet.

Good luck getting your 100Gbps+ sustained (from their actual requirements) of bandwidth in a non-extradition country to your primary audience in the USA.

Can you link to that requirements doc? I find it hard to believe that Parler required 100Gbps to run and meet a reasonable SLA. Also you can leverage multiple non-extradition jurisdictions to help offload bandwidth requirements while providing a hot spare cell.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

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Post by lliamander » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 11:08 PM UTC

foolinaround wrote: post #217

There is now a new risk that needs to be mitigated by the business, that of its business being taken down for any reason at all - subject to the whims of a changing culture, and possibly even outside of the laws of the land one is in. This will hopefully make folks think through the entire supply chain including cloud and SaaS providers. AWS was always like renting an apartment, or even, a fully furnished apartment.…

This threat is already mitigated by service contracts. AWS pretty obviously broke contract here, and will almost certain suffer legal consequences for that.

Why they thought they could get away with it is unclear, but their rebuttle to Parler's claims is pretty weak.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#227

Post by krona » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 11:08 PM UTC

Analemma_ wrote: post #190

bluescrn wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the speech really the problem, or the echo chambers within which it is spoken? The marketplace of ideas can't really function if people are only ever presented with a carefully tailored safe/comfortable subset of ideas.

But what’s the solution then? “We are going to forcibly expose you to speech you’d rather not see, for the greater good” is no less dystopian than just banning people.

It's better than forcing ideological tribes of people in to their own ghettos (platforms), which create monocultural cesspits.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#228

Post by caseysoftware » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 11:08 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #196

caseysoftware wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fire up a mob and incite them to attempt to violently take over the seat of government of a country with nuclear weapons You know the buttons/switches/etc to launch missiles (nuclear or not) are not at the Speaker's podium in the House, right? In fact, "taking over the seat of government" here was literally just that.. a physical seat. The US government applies authority in people via roles not via seating position…

"Was it a "violent take over"? Not a chance" Sure it was. This is how a 'coup' works - the objective is not to 'take control of the country' by force, but of the political system. If that violent mob was successful in 'stopping the count' - then it very seriously threatens the legitimacy of Biden being president. Why do you think that Congress reconvened right after the violence and very quickly pushed through the vo…

> 'now you have two Presidents'

If you're going to imagine Constitutional crises, you should understand the rules we're working within. Check out the first section of the 20th Amendment and please report back how there could be two Presidents.

Narrator: Turns out the system isn't that fragile. It continues on regardless because there are contingencies built in and improved upon over the years.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

#229

Post by Solvitieg » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 11:09 PM UTC

lisper wrote: post #11

I gotta say, recent events have left me shaken to my core. I thought I believed in free speech, to the point where I started a company dedicated to providing privacy and communications products that were not subject to control by any central authority (that turns out to be very hard!) But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. I…

I think everyone would benefit if we stopped using the phrase "free speech" because it consistently derails the conversation into a 1st amendment vs private companies argument. Which is a very tired argument at this point.

A better word for what's happening is "censorship" and society's willingness to allow organizations to censor their customers.

Re: Parler’s de-platforming shows the exceptional power of cloud providers

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Post by mcguire » Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 11:10 PM UTC

eznzt wrote: post #182

pmlnr wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But watching the events of the past few years unfold I am no longer convinced that this would really make the world a better place. One hard truth: it would have been enough to look at European laws made after WWII, and adopt them in the US as well in the first place.

"In Europe, Speech Is an Alienable Right: [the European Court of Human Rights] upheld an Austrian woman’s conviction for disparaging the Prophet Muhammad." https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-fr... Is this really what you want?

"She held “seminars” in which she presented her view that Muhammad was indeed a child molester. Dominant Islamic traditions hold that Muhammad’s third wife, Aisha, was 6 at the time of their marriage and 9 at its consummation. Muhammad was in his early 50s. The Austrian woman repeated these claims, and the Austrian court ruled that she had to pay 480 euros or spend 60 days in the slammer. The ECHR ruled that Austria had not violated her rights."

So it appears that she set out to attack Islam and then received a relative slap-on-the-wrist for it. Neither of those affect the principles, but still....