Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

npr.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 378 posts

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#221

Post by munk-a »

joshe wrote: post #80
simpixelated wrote: post #5

Along with the unionization at Google, I think it's a good trend to see them happening at big tech companies. As it says in the article: "Unions are a prominent presence at Amazon in Europe, but the company for years successfully fought off labor organizing efforts in the U.S." It's sad that Amazon, along with FB and Google, etc. have managed to squash unions so completely here in the US. There's a lot of propaganda…

American unions are quite different from European unions. European unions spend a lot of time running apprenticeship programs and doing things like advocating for more productivity. Like trying to figure out how to make the shop floor more efficient. American unions spend time preventing bad employees from being fired (like the NY teacher's rubber rooms and police unions fighting the firing of cops with 5 excessive f…

I think part of the stark difference in how unions operate is due to the societal pressures applied to them. All of those "good" unions that would help advocate for employee education and protect workers who were unjustly fired were easier to brand as socialist and ended up being broken up as they failed to devote all of their power towards politics and staying alive. This ends up contributing to that image that unions don't do anything since, in the US, they are constantly maligned by politicians and the press - and since anything even loosely connected to communism (like, here, collective bargaining) has to fight an unhill PR battle in the hearts and minds of Americans.

Unions should exist to serve their workers and the fact that most public unions gain the most power by constantly funneling money into political campaigns is a real problem that just leads back to election finance laws.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#222

Post by lawnchair_larry »

myownpetard wrote: post #133
nostromo wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: does the Democratic Party care about labor anymore? It feels like anti-Trumpism, identity issues (race, trans issues, etc.), and immigration have sucked all the oxygen out of the room. I can’t remember the last time I saw a Democrat run with supporting labor as their headline issue.

The Democratic Party is too large of an umbrella these days. Anybody whose primary concerns are among fiscal responsibility/the deficit, public education, effective foreign policy, civil rights, human rights, political corruption, science based public health/policy, climate change, domestic extremism, an independent judiciary etc. has moved into the democratic party. The Republican Party is for people whose primary c…

Have you ever talked to a single Republican? You’re way off base, especially with the race baiting.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#223

Post by moate »

Sodman wrote: post #81
WitCanStain wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is there such a mechanism for unions? Unions should be democratic. The workers in the union should collectively decide how it is run, and it should have a fairly flat hierarchical structure. So if you feel that your union does not sufficiently represent your interests, you can get rid of the leadership and change the union for the better. As opposed to companies where you essentially have the choice to tolerate it o…

The problem is that democracy is imperfect, it can be (and is) frequently gamed and manipulated. Many people are worried about the following scenario: - Software engineers unionize - Some "bad" rules get implemented, perhaps passing vote by misleading slogans or over-represented groups etc. Maybe it was a narrow 51% vs 49% vote. - Top talent leaves, over time that 51% in favor of the bad rules becomes a larger and la…

So we agree that "nothing is perfect".

My question is why did this group unionize if nothing has changed for the better (in your words "its the same as before except now you owe union dues")?

Wouldn't it be more likely that the group makes some gains, some losses and is better for most of the people in the group overall? That tends to be what happens in real unionization efforts (I'm more than happy to provide case studies).

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#224

Post by stretchcat »

ATsch wrote: post #174
bluGill wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If sexual harassment really exists a lawyer will be glad to help. Companies that don't take care of it end up in big trouble - to your lawyers advantage. Sexual harassment is one of several things that the legal system takes seriously.

I think the fact that you read that message and this was your conclusion is kind of concerning. Either way getting a restraining order or whatever on someone you work with is definitely not going to improve your situation, if you can even prove it in the first place.

Surely the lawyer would be for pursuing a lawsuit, not a restraining order.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#225

Post by Aunche »

worik wrote: post #190
Aunche wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any negotiated increase in salary or pensions should require a vote unless if there is a budget surplus. Municipalities are incurring way too much debt without taxpayer knowledge, let alone approval. Government workers already have a lot of job security, so I don't think unions should be allowed to affect that. I do think that public servants have a right to negotiate safety and other technical issues without public…

I want to vote on your salary.

The difference is that my salary doesn't force you to take on debt.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#226

Post by rayiner »

pmoriarty wrote: post #104
random5634 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The propaganda unfortunately also comes from folks direct experience with unions. In the US, most unions are public sector. So folks see that Police unions may protect bad apples via union. Teachers unions may care more about teachers including bad ones then teaching kids. We had a famously terrible teacher at my school - unfirable - as kids we thought it was hilarious. As a parent now - not so cool. Non unionized sc…

The problem is when anecdotes about isolated abuses are used to reject unions outright rather than looking at whether unions as a whole would benefit society. You could argue from personal experience that you went to a bad school therefore all schools are bad, or you had a bad experience with therefore all people of that sort are bad. It's just not very convincing.

It’s not “anecdotes about isolated abuses.” Even parents I know who are solidly on the left are outraged by how completely inflexible teachers’ unions have been during the pandemic. Even people I know who are ardent Democrats in states like Illinois grumble quietly about the government having no money because they’re crushed under pension obligations.

The problem is that, in the US, most peoples’ experiences with unions is with public unions, which are the worst kind of unions: https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2019/10/29/coolidge-and-...

> For decades, that was the mainstream Democratic view, too. “The process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service,” President Franklin D. Roosevelt affirmed in 1937.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#227

Post by lawnchair_larry »

legitster wrote: post #9

I have to imagine unions have a bit of an uphill battle right now, they took some major black eyes in 2020: - Police unions openly declaring war on their own citizens - Teachers unions causing general chaos in school reopening plans I understand that public sector unions are a different beast, but purely from an optics perspective I have to imagine public sentiment for unions can't be very high right now.

> Police unions openly declaring war on their own citizens

Link?

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#228

Post by dragonwriter »

kortilla wrote: post #218
dragonwriter wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most recent drama was about a researcher having her quitting ultimatum called by a manager. No, it wasn’t. Even to the extent that might be considered a superficially correct description of part of what happened, its not the center of the “drama”, which is more centrally about the treatment which led up to that.

But that’s the point. The “treatment leading up to that” was a mid 6 figure income and nearly free reign to do research in her field of interest. Not relatable to most of the lower or middle class in the US.

> The “treatment leading up to that” was a mid 6 figure income and nearly free reign to do research in her field of interest.

No, the proximately preceding treatment was restrictions on her research that were inconsistent with those imposed on other Google AI researchers (the extent to which that is due to its subject matter, the extent to which it is due to her internal advocacy on gender and race issues, and the extent to which it is due to her own race and sex is unclear.)

> Not relatable to most of the lower or middle class in the US.

Being singled out for adverse treatment either for raising issues related to gender or race equity or for one’s gender or race are, actually, quite relatable to lots of the lower and middle class in the US, certainly including those in that group who are also black and/or women.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#229

Post by j_walter »

random5634 wrote: post #31
j_walter wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions in the US and unions is Europe are completely different. In one they cooperate to see that the company succeeds...and in the other they seek to drive up the cost of doing business to the point that shitty products are extremely expensive (GM, Ford). Unions used to be for protecting the workers and ensuring that companies were getting the very best skillsets when hiring. Now they protect the lazy, promote the w…

I actually know a bit about the german union model. A couple of factors - the overall labor force is pretty highly educated and skilled - so less free riding overall. Strong social safety net - so folks not suited to a job have a place to land with health care etc. a MUCH more cooperate relationship with management -> the unions in Germany at least also want productivity / common sense stuff. In the US, you can have…

When I refer to the European model I'm probably talking about the German model. Many years ago the articles I was reading had been going over the VW union so it was likely Germany. The cooperation part and inefficiencies you mention are exactly the problem. Here in the US the union and company are enemies that battle each other...and like you say illogical rules that just benefit the union.

Re: Amazon Warehouse Workers to Decide Whether to Form Company's First U.S. Union

#230

Post by stretchcat »

quandrum wrote: post #168
asdff wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For every anecdote of an isolated case of union abuse, there are probably hundreds of unheard cases of corporations abusing their workers. But that doesn't matter for most people, simplistic logic says therefore all unions are bad and capable of corruption, and ignoring that most of the time, the status quo is far, far more exploitative for the average worker. Once again, perfect becomes the enemy of good, and condit…

Wage theft is the most common crime in the US, is estimated to occur to ~20% of all employees and equal tens of billions a year, and no one talks about it. How many union members do you think experience wage theft?

The US Department of Labor takes wage theft very seriously. If you report it to them, at no cost to yourself, they will investigate it and almost certainly scare your boss shitless so he'll never try it again.

Probably they could do a better job of advertising this to workers. Many workers experiencing wage theft probably are not aware of their options, and that's a problem. But when used, it works. I've seen it work.

Post reply on HN