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China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

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221–230 of 371 posts

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#221
post #38

Article looks fishy. But if China goes down this route, it looks like fears of China economically overtaking the US are overblown.

There is not really much of a reason to believe this. Economically successful nationalization do happen. The main reason why the CCP is considering nationalizing Ant Financial is because their economists are afraid of the negative economic impacts it may have. The same thing happened in my province, where the power generation industry was nationalized for economic reasons and ended up being a massive economic advanta…

Are there success stories apart from utilities and companies involved in the exploitation natural resources?

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#222
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The era of CCP economic rise is over. Middle income trap and aging demographics dictate as much. CCP will now have to contend with - internal turmoil - political infighting - encirclement by democracies (India, Japan, Australia, US, UK, Canada, France, South Korea, Taiwan). Once Merkel is out in sept 2021, Germany will be onboard - negative sentiment from most of population in the world due to covid - exploding debt/…

> If you have a foreign commercial presence in China, expect... In how many months do you expect your predictions will come true, in a way that will cause the majority of Fortune 500 firms to leave China? Three? Six? Sixty? Six hundred? I, for one, have strong doubts that the majority of those firms will ever leave China. I will also note that all of your criticisms can be applied even more-so to democracies. Interna…

That's a trillion dollar question.

Firms will leave China once democracies around the world make a multi-lateral trade agreement and put our money elsewhere that's aligned with our core beliefs including or primarily free speech, say India. Get the agreement in place, have it come into effect in 2 years ahead of time, provide investment grants or loans to businesses (globally if they're aligned with democracy/free speech) who want to manufacture whatever will fill a gap in production for what the 80% of what consumers buy currently from China.

CCP could easily prevent this redirection of resources by allowing free speech and having elections.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#223
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We in America are much too obsessed with "one great man" theories of history. I also think we are inclined to underestimate the competency of Chinese governmental figures, which is structured very differently from the West. Eh... Do I think Bezos is a visionary responsible for all of Amazon's success? No. But culture comes from the top. There's a lot of ways to run a company poorly, especially if it's doing somethi…

People thought the same thing about apple when Jobs died but it's up 900% in the 9 years since his death

Jobs rescued Apple from the brink of bankruptcy.. There would be no Apple to be up 900%.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#224
post #95

Guo Wengui said back in September 2019 that "Jack Ma would be jailed or killed" on Kyle Bass's youtube channel. [1] At this point its not even a question of whether we will see Jack Ma in public again. Overnight he went from billionaire to peasantry. We've seen dozen cases like this: 1) Billionaire disappears or is "killed" 2) Billionaire's company becomes nationalized 3) Rinse & Repeat Everybody who isn't familiar w…

The era of CCP economic rise is over. Middle income trap and aging demographics dictate as much. CCP will now have to contend with - internal turmoil - political infighting - encirclement by democracies (India, Japan, Australia, US, UK, Canada, France, South Korea, Taiwan). Once Merkel is out in sept 2021, Germany will be onboard - negative sentiment from most of population in the world due to covid - exploding debt/…

Is this a documented sequence of events? Is there a book/resource to read into more details on these types of evens played out?

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The era of CCP economic rise is over. Middle income trap and aging demographics dictate as much. CCP will now have to contend with - internal turmoil - political infighting - encirclement by democracies (India, Japan, Australia, US, UK, Canada, France, South Korea, Taiwan). Once Merkel is out in sept 2021, Germany will be onboard - negative sentiment from most of population in the world due to covid - exploding debt/…

Yes, many good points, but some of the same problems exist in the West and in the Asian democracies: covid, debt, aging demographics. China does have one compelling advantage: its enormous population. Even if a horrible plague or even a civil war happened and 100m people died, they still have plenty of people to accomplish anything they want. They have Ph.D. scientists, many trained at top Western universities, who a…

China's 1.3B population is not equal. around 700M still lives on $140/month income, with no education to "accomplish anything they want". It will have 500M 65 year olds by 2050, too old to "accomplish anything they want".

China suffers brain drain to the West. Many of Chinese Ph.D students and scientists I know curse the day Xi Jing Ping declared himself to be the emperor, and is actively moving their families out of China as quickly as possible after 2018.

China has had very little luck in advanced semiconductor or airplane engine productions

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 850 million people out of poverty. This is not something a reasonable person can argue against! I'd argue against it on the grounds that the planet doesn't have enough resources for everyone to live a middle class lifestyle.

So chinese people should just sit down and live low class life. Got it.

You can be aggrieved, blame the west, assign whatever morality you want, it doesn't change the fact that the planet doesn't have enough resources for everyone to live a middle class lifestyle.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#227
post #95

Guo Wengui said back in September 2019 that "Jack Ma would be jailed or killed" on Kyle Bass's youtube channel. [1] At this point its not even a question of whether we will see Jack Ma in public again. Overnight he went from billionaire to peasantry. We've seen dozen cases like this: 1) Billionaire disappears or is "killed" 2) Billionaire's company becomes nationalized 3) Rinse & Repeat Everybody who isn't familiar w…

The era of CCP economic rise is over. Middle income trap and aging demographics dictate as much. CCP will now have to contend with - internal turmoil - political infighting - encirclement by democracies (India, Japan, Australia, US, UK, Canada, France, South Korea, Taiwan). Once Merkel is out in sept 2021, Germany will be onboard - negative sentiment from most of population in the world due to covid - exploding debt/…

Maybe your analysis make sense. But I often look opposite analysis to defeat the algorithm of social media. Personally I think it's partially responsible for there are 2 different realities that lead to the Jan 6 Capitol event.

Here's a piece that draws quite different picture from yours.

https://worldaffairs.blog/2020/12/31/from-terrified-to-trium...

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#228
post #4

Wow. This, alongside Jack Ma being "missing", is really curious. https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/jack-ma-missing-232138645.... Best, semi-legit source I can find, there's other news postings, but from more tabloid and sources that aren't as sincere as Yahoo Financial News. Which, itself is curious, because CNBC spins it differently: " https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/05/alibaba-founder-jack-ma-is-l... " Which also fall…

I am most surprised about how surprised everyone is about these events. Did Jack Ma think he was going to tell the CCP how it is? China is executing an executive for bribery and corruption [1] (a lot of bribery and corruption though!). Perhaps it's simply the Overton Window [2] delta between the US and China. [1] https://www.dw.com/en/china-sentences-ex-banker-to-death-for... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton…

  >Did Jack Ma think he was going to tell the CCP how it is? 
The thing is that [even allowing for the fact that any news coming out of China that we get in the west is heavily spun to make China look bad] what Jack Ma is alleged to have said seems very mild to me, to be provoking such a massive response. Apparently he said "Chinese banks operate with a pawnshop mentality"[0] --hardly calling for the overthrow of the state, is it?

It all seems so over the top that I'm almost convinced that the US has infiltrated the higher echelons of the CCP and is working hard to make China shoot itself in the foot economically. Is that any crazier a notion than the pretty widely held belief that Donald Trump's election was a Russian plot to undermine the US on the world stage?

Because, the only results of this over-the-top crackdown by China are likely to be that:

* More Chinese entrepreneurs are going to 'get the hell out of Dodge' as soon as they can, rather than risk the same fate. By emigrating from China and setting up elsewhere.

* Western businesses are going to be extremely reluctant to enter into any partnerships / large contracts / investments with Chinese companies, for fear of the rug being pulled from under them.

* AliBaba & Ant will stagnate under government management

It just doesn't make sense to me:

* Lots of reports recently predicting China will become the world's no.1 economy before the end of this decade.

* China's economy first out of the starting blocks on the road to recovery, after the Coronavirus pandemic

* Chinese companies outdoing technologically & commercially their US counterparts [so much so that it led to Trump's spurious sanctions against HuaWei et al].

All of this should have led to the CCP becoming more pro-capitalist in outlook and more supportive of Chinese entrepreneurship from people like Jack Ma. Why suddenly shoot yourself in the foot, when you're finally 'winning'? I just find it really hard to believe that the leadership of the CCP which, if nothing else, has demonstrated itself to be extremely pragmatic over recent decades, is so thin skinned as to risk massive and ongoing damage to their economy over such an innocuous remark.

As I say, in my tinfoil-hatted opinion either the CCP has been infiltrated by the US who are attempting to destroy the Chinese economy from within, or there's a lot more to what Jack Ma has actually done than we're being told.

[0] https://www.reuters.com/article/ant-group-ipo-suspension-reg...

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#229
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The discourse about China, misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions It functions like a dictatorship functions. The dictatorship of the party. > And it's actually a huge problem for the West that both government and citizens do not engage China seriously. The West will mostly separate production within about a decade or two. It‘s not a problem at all.

>> misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions > It functions like a dictatorship functions. The dictatorship of the party. This is exactly the kind of reductive thinking that is getting the West into trouble. There is no dictatorship system. At most, it points to a non-democratic system. But that term covers an incredibly wide variety of regimes, from 1920s Portugal to Latin American Cold War authorita…

How is calling the CCP a dictatorship getting the West into trouble?

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, many good points, but some of the same problems exist in the West and in the Asian democracies: covid, debt, aging demographics. China does have one compelling advantage: its enormous population. Even if a horrible plague or even a civil war happened and 100m people died, they still have plenty of people to accomplish anything they want. They have Ph.D. scientists, many trained at top Western universities, who a…

The one child policy makes China’s aging problem particularly rapid, at a time when they are not wealthy enough per capita to make the transition. One child supports two parents and four grandparents. Plus a low retirement age that is only now getting extended. (60 for men, 55 for women previously). Over a third of Shanghai is over 60, as is a quarter in Beijing, Tianjin, etc. Now the one child policy has been relaxe…

True, they're in trouble demographically. Projections I have read in the past (before one-child was repealed) suggested they would lose 400m people by end of 21st Century. 400m!

Meanwhile, the West has its own implosion well underway... but, unlike China we have immigration. The U.S. population is still growing thanks to immigration, as is Europe's, even though both regions have replacement-level or below-replacement birthrates by natives. Immigrants tend to have higher birthrates however.

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