In one of the largest high schools in Texas, we weren't allowed to leave campus, we couldn't even take our lunch out of the double doors and eat our sandwich outside. It's something I absolutely despise about our contemporary culture. I live in Latin America now and envy the kids for getting 45 minutes free at lunch time to hang out outside, socialize, buy from the street vendors that will gather at that time, maybe…
Anecdotally, I've heard of that more at suburban schools where you pretty much have to access and leave the campus via car. At my high school in Chicago (2003-2007, ~2,000 students) we were free to leave the campus at any time and often spent lunch at a nearby hot dog stand or sitting in the park and hanging out. The only restriction was that you had to re-enter through specific entries so they could check school IDs…
School or Prison
221–230 of 497 posts
Re: School or Prison
#222Earlier quoted context omitted.
Prisons have to be resistant to the attempts of their occupants to escape, or to cause damage or destruction. This doesn't really seem compatible with warm and inviting.
They can be. If you're curious, check out "worlds toughest prisons" on Netflix, an episode that shows a Norwegian rehabilitation-focused prison. You can see how the place is both secure and warm.
Re: School or Prison
#223Earlier quoted context omitted.
Also one of the only places with a nontrivial amount of people who would lie about needing to go to the bathroom, many times per day, just to be disruptive and/or to get out of class. aka "this is why we can't have nice things", juvenile edition :)
I think you need to ask why a non trivial amount of people would lie about needing to go to the bathroom. This is not a common behavior of teenagers at home, in a museum, at camp, on a canoe trip, or just about anywhere else I can think of...
Re: School or Prison
#224I get what the comparison is about, I do. But really- how many different ways are there to house hundreds of people in an institutional setting?
Each ground-level classroom could have doors which open onto the surrounding garden. Upper floors can have external stairs, like personal residence buildings. A school building could provide maximum natural light to the occupants. For example, it could have shape and orientation so most of its windows get sunlight throughout the year. Interior spaces can have skylights and be used for short-duration activities like r…
Re: School or Prison
#225Now then...
There's a lot of people crapping on schools and teachers in this thread, and as a former teacher and spouse of a teacher I'd like to point out a few things:
Schools and teachers provide a vital service. Not only do they educate our children, they babysit our children, and the pandemic has shown us how vital that aspect of the service is. I've anecdotally seen many parents on social media complain about having to look after their own children during the day.
Schools need arbitrary and often draconian seeming rules, such as refusing toilet breaks, not allowing food or drinks in a classroom, or enforcing strict dress protocols. If you truly knew how manipulative a group of children can be, when ganged together you'd understand this. Toilet breaks are often abused, with children skipping class to, for instance, vape in the toilets. I've had classes where I've spent my break cleaning up chewing gum, spilled drinks and crumbs from students sneaking snacks. When kids aren't in uniform, or under a strict dress code they'll push the limits of what is acceptable and additionally bully the poorer children that can't afford the latest fashions.
If we want schools to ease up on such restrictions then you need to invest in more teachers and other staff. I've had science classes with 35 students all with Bunsen burners merrily flaming, flammable and corrosive chemicals in beakers at their desks, and syringes or pipettes (also read as water pistols). Or my engineering class with 20 soldering irons all on, pillar drills being operated, while a couple of kids are etching circuit boards. Try running that type of class without strict rules and you're liable to see injury, loss of employment, a lawsuit and possibly prison.
If I'd had smaller class sizes, or more staff in the classroom, I could have relaxed my rules. I'd know the kids better, have built up a more trusting relationship been able to monitor who was doing what with greater efficiency.
These are kids we're talking about and they're developing, experimenting, learning, and struggling to navigate a complex social dynamic in a very unnatural environment. Without rules in place, they'll screw up. For God's sake, how many of you "adults" have had to sign a code-of-conduct agreement before being allowed admittance to a tech conference or hackathon? Even grownups can't be trusted.
Re: School or Prison
#226Re: School or Prison
#227Just the idea of a school is worse than a prison: - it’s mandatory - closed confinement - not allowed to do what you want in that closed area - you’re being told what to do for at least 8-14 years - you’re being told when to pee - during the years there is no choice in what you want to learn And at the end of your school/studies you’re asked to be creative and responsible
The following is specific to the USA: 1. School is not mandatory; education is mandatory. Ask any home schooler. A rare few private schools offer quite different experiences than the typical public school (e.g., the University of Chicago Laboratory Schools). This applies also to "closed confinement" and "control". Of course, opting out requires enlightened parenting and lots of resources. 2. You are constantly told w…
Home schooling is not a suitable alternative IMO. Social contact with your peers is important too; having to forfeit that just to not be in a prison-like system seems like a bad deal.
> Choose some good coding/math/philosophy puzzles during the evening and work on them instead of paying attention in class
So in addition to wasting 8 hours per day in class you need to do extra work in the evening?
I think in both cases we need to fix the system instead of putting the burden onto students to put up with it or work around it with the solutions that you describe.
Re: School or Prison
#228Earlier quoted context omitted.
> meeting some mental quota the teacher has for the appropriate # of people that should have to use the toilet during a given period of time. In grade school, every time someone asks permission to use the bathroom they stop the flow of the lesson and valuable time is lost. In college the idea is that most of the students are responsible enough to handle the bathroom and food.
When I was in elementary school, we were told to try to use the bathroom after lunch, or during recess. This was teaching how to plan for what you needed to do and use the opportunities you had to get it done. You had four or five times a day when you could go to the bathroom without needing to be excused from class. It was actually harder in high school because other than lunch, you had minimal passing time between…
It's fine to ask kids to go when there's specific opportunities, but that doesn't justify restrictive policies during other times: Tiny bladders of small children don't work that way. Especially in grade school, it doesn't need to take more than 15-20 minutes to go from "I'm fine" to "I a really need to go". Especially when bathroom privileges are rationed out & tightly controlled and you become hyper aware of your bladder state. I have my two young kids "do a try" in the bathroom before we leave the house for any car ride. That doesn't stop the occasional "I have to go!" 20 minutes into the trip. And sure enough, at the rest stop it's like my kid turned from a 6 year old into an elephant from the amount that comes out of their body.
When & how quickly you develop the need to urinate depends on a lot of factors: Your specific metabolism, recent activity, what you drank and ate, body position, and probably more. And at some point mentally, you simply pass a threshold where one minute you feel no need to go to the bathroom, and the next minute you do. If that "next minute" occurs 10 minutes after lunch break, so what? What is gained by denying that need?
Re: School or Prison
#229Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can't even look at school as not being a prison. It's one of the only places I've had the displeasure to be denied basic rights such as going to use a toilet.
Also one of the only places with a nontrivial amount of people who would lie about needing to go to the bathroom, many times per day, just to be disruptive and/or to get out of class. aka "this is why we can't have nice things", juvenile edition :)
Stopping making a big deal out of it will remove the disruption factor. If you can just get up and leave and nobody pays attention the act will quickly lose its effect.
> to get out of class
This suggests there's a bigger problem there if people are so desperate to get out as to fake a bathroom break, but anyway, why not let them? What's the harm? If these people are bored/disgruntled/etc then you already lost the game and no amount of force or coercion will change their mind.
Re: School or Prison
#230If you are more curious, I would also suggest his book titled “Free to Learn”
[1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn/200909...